Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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serious, you could have someones eye out with that guys head

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:36 (nineteen years ago)

i think a teenpop artist should make an album about saving the whales

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:37 (nineteen years ago)

not getting obsessed with some chimerical "genre" != not getting obsessed over music

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:39 (nineteen years ago)

this is how the hitler youth started

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:39 (nineteen years ago)

^^ oh god, those guys were OBSESSED!

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:40 (nineteen years ago)

not getting obsessed with some chimerical "genre" != not getting obsessed over music

^^^ this. The days when I heard a song I liked and then immediately had to download every record ever released on the same label = ghost.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:40 (nineteen years ago)

i am only an expert on pre-teen pop. i know everything there is to know about dee dee doodle's keytar techniques and the techno stylings of lazytown.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:42 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno, though, dudes, are we arguing then that we should all be dilettante jack-of-all-trades, then? Because that's pretty problematic too.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

i would rather my passions tend toward the deep and focused than broad and shallow

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

that sounds like some high falutin penthouse forum shit

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

I think we *need* the guys who throw themselves waist deep into all these new and overlooked genres, I'm just saying that I don't wanna invite any of them out drinking.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:44 (nineteen years ago)

well im kinda busy that nite anyhow

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:46 (nineteen years ago)

in honor of this thread i have put radio disney on my t.v. they are now playing c&c music factory. see, if hilary sounded more like c&c music factory i would be first in line to buy her album. maybe.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno, though, dudes, are we arguing then that we should all be dilettante jack-of-all-trades, then? Because that's pretty problematic too.

on the one hand yes - we need specialists, i think knowing your field inside out is a really good thing, and certainly tremendously helpful to 'outsiders'

on the other hand - personally i could not go through life only listening to one type of music; time and finance and such dictate that if i choose to pay attention to three or more genres i'm going to feel somewhat dilettantish in each

i don't think castigating people for not being specialists is ever going to be helpful though - i'm a music geek, i spend a large proportion of time zealously keeping up with new music, and there's no way i could do it. most ordinary consumers of music are dilettantes - looking down on them would be rather small-minded and snobbish i think

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

this from Mr "i'm not a populist, i think i disapprove of it"

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:49 (nineteen years ago)

Specialists are a good thing, groupthink isn't. Or, in another way, the true evil lies with the followers not the dictator.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

i forgot about the cheetah girls. i like them. even their cover of route 66 is pretty good.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:54 (nineteen years ago)

i resent the Cheetah Girls because they Disneyed up the hot one from 3LW and re-directed her career path away from slutting it up in mainstream R&B videos.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:01 (nineteen years ago)

now who's creepy

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:03 (nineteen years ago)

(j/k i fully approve of girls (and boys) slutting it up in all videos)

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:04 (nineteen years ago)

fuck off, she's like a year younger than me. (xpost haha)

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:04 (nineteen years ago)

mc hammer into rascal flatts (doing a cover of life is a highway *ugh*) reminds me why i don't listen to radio disney that much.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

This thread reminded me of that "why is pop bad?" thread that pinefox started way back in 2001. The search engine is not revealing it to me, but if I remember correctly dave q reaching this almost mystical level of arguing where he could claim that either pop music was bad because it was always changing and was therefore flimsy and meaningless, or it was bad because it didn't change and was therefore boring and undynamic.

It appears that posters to the teenpop thread are to be convicted of something. All that remains is to work out what that is. Are they guilty of talking about too broad a range of music or too narrow? For acting as if this music is art, or denying the place of art in music? For being frivolous or for being overly earnest?

Let's all think of other ways in which the teenpop thread can lose whatever happens.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:14 (nineteen years ago)

jess, where is yer love for the new jack shwang of corbin bleu?

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:15 (nineteen years ago)

like i said, tim, people read all kinds of things into that thread! it's majik.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

"Wow, it'd sure be fun to sing "The Impression That I Get" right now."

otm

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:20 (nineteen years ago)

looks like the cheetah girls 2 soundtrack is the place to go for yer baby R&B.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:20 (nineteen years ago)

r.i.p. the "lil" in lil bow wow

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:23 (nineteen years ago)

i think the criticism that poptimism is a bulwark on the path to social democracy is my favourite. i don't quite understand it but i like it.

― acrobat, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:26 (nineteen years ago)

so wrong that he punched so far above his weight in dating ciara. even wronger that he dared to dump her!!!!! xp

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:27 (nineteen years ago)

BTW can someone who has the power find out which real post mark 0 is? I must say I like the way his michael franti pastiche has unfurled so artfully.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:29 (nineteen years ago)

surely it was his height he was punching above, not his weight.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:29 (nineteen years ago)

ciara's a big-boned girl. only sleb who's way bigger in person than you expect.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:33 (nineteen years ago)

I sometimes wonder if ciara means the lyrics to "like a boy" quite literally.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:36 (nineteen years ago)

have you seen the video tim?! cocking a snook at all those rumours i feel

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:36 (nineteen years ago)

BTW can someone who has the power find out which real post mark 0 is? I must say I like the way his michael franti pastiche has unfurled so artfully.

You've insulted me! I'm actually Stanley Crouch.

― mark 0, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:52 (nineteen years ago)

At least you didn't drum for Gay Dad.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:53 (nineteen years ago)

Don't be so sure.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:55 (nineteen years ago)

Gay Dad and David Murray!

― mark 0, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:55 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think "frothy and exciteable" is necessarily at odds with "earnest and humorless." You can be earnestly frothy, which is what I think the accusation is all about.

This thread has been fantastic, btw, speaking as someone who likes some teenpop (Lindsay Lohan's "First" fucking rules, and Aly and AJ's "Rush" is pretty good, too) but is sort of put off by the teenpop thread for some reason I can't quite articulate (although Al and deej have done a pretty good job).

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

I'm still totally unclear as to what's so off-putting about the teenpop thread. What is "earnest froth"? What are these accusations really all about -- surely this isn't really about specialization (or dilettantism), because (1) no one on the teenpop thread would ever claim to be an "expert" of the genre, and in fact the pervading tone is one of skepticism toward any sort of "expertise" or "specialization" (though focusing on a topic can help establish informal rules and boundaries of discussion, making discussion possible -- though really they're probably the most informal rules of any of the discussions, genre threads or otherwise) and, though maybe dilettantish (this is not inherently a bad thing; see Frank's Department of Dilettante Research), fundamentally open to grappling with a broad range of perspectives and ideas. I just don't see how there is anything off-putting about the thread whatsoever; in fact, I think it's (potentially) the best place to spark music discussions, along with a few of the other rolling threads, because there's an implied congeniality missing from a lot of other random threads, but the insights aren't limited, and consensus is never a given (there is actually very little consensus on the teenpop thread -- I think there are two or three people, e.g., who put "4ever" in their top singles of the year).

So it's particularly disheartening to hear claims of a "leader/follower" situation (not to say a lot of posters aren't influenced by the established critics posting there, but...why shouldn't we be?), and of a "tone" that should avoided, when the only thing about the teepop thread that doesn't shift or change is its multiplicity (in ideas, in what music in encompasses, in the social demographics, etc. etc.) and its openness to change any given idea on any given day, provided there's a reasonable (or hell, even unreasonable if it sparks a conversation) argument for it.

We still haven't gotten past the word way up at the beginning of the revive that started us (well, me, anyway) down this path in the first place: CREEPY. There is something unsettling about the teenpop thread to a lot of people posting here (some people who post on the thread) and I want to try to uncover what this really is. It's STUPID, and it prevents people from joining the conversation (if ya don't like the music, but you like the conversation, why not express an opinion, make an argument, for why it's bad, or cliched, or not worth talking about? "Inside" posters do this all the time; I spent several thousand words trying to articulate why I didn't want to focus on Avril's "Girlfriend.")

(Tim F generally OTM)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:16 (nineteen years ago)

(Ignore the numbers, I guess it was all one big point.)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

1. Teenpop commentators are both Communists and marrow-sucking Capitalist pigs.

2. OMGz. LOL. Teenpop commentators BELIEVE:: ALY + AJ R Better than Bobbie Dylan!!!

On a serious (or is it?) note: I'm very suspicious that "humorless" means - HOW COME WHEN I MAKE FUN OF TEENPOP, THEY ALWAYS EXPLAIN WHAT I'M MISSING AND MAKE ME LOOK LIKE AN ASS? DUDE! I JUST WANNA CALL PARIS A SLUT!

Cause far as I can tell - indie music and indie fans can be just as humorless - IF NOT MORESO - than teenpop fans. Cause Joanna Newsom is really full of humor, right? Or the fans who drool over her like excited 12-year-olds on this board really aren't humorless.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:19 (nineteen years ago)

its possible that the indie people dont feel the need/pressure to be boosterish, as its already a given that the rules of the game are 'accepted', and that this can lead to a general defensiveness-of-genre in teenpoppers because rules of game not accepted, so have to rep for the rules of the game as well as the players

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

+ general feeeling of 'ok i dont normally get to talk about this much so im kinda stoked that i can here'

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:23 (nineteen years ago)

Holy shit, 696. Are you serious? I've been sold TV on the Radio more than I've ever been sold Miley Cyrus. Maybe I haven't been sold indie as an idea, but I've definitely been sold indie bands. Even indie bands as ideas (ie: Joanna Newsom).

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

eh, wait? i dont understand, im not saying indie bands arent sold/marketed. of course they are!

i...genuinely dont get what you've read me as saying, above

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:26 (nineteen years ago)

Can't be sold if you ain't buyin
Can't be told if you ain't tryin
Can't be sad if you ain't cryin
CAN'T WALK IF YOU'RE BUSY FLYIN

― Dimension 5ive, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:27 (nineteen years ago)

I don't mean 'sold' in the marketing sense. Obviously. I mean having the band pushed onto me.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

Friends who come to ask her for their future
Friends who come to find they can't be friends
Because of signs and seasons that don't suit her
She'll prophesy your death, she won't say when
Won't say when, won't say when.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:29 (nineteen years ago)

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