Frank Kogan's forthcoming "Real Punks Don't Wear Black"

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (475 of them)
STILL not at uga library, i'll probably never get to read this damn thing.

j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 3 April 2006 17:15 (twenty years ago)

How can it not be at UGA (if UGA stands for what I think it stands for) Library of all places in all the world?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 3 April 2006 17:19 (twenty years ago)

they got that ned sublette cuba book, i'll probably read that. or hammer of the gods again.

j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 3 April 2006 17:23 (twenty years ago)

Well, this is a sweet review, and Jim's fundamentally an enthusiastic good-hearted guy, though I wish he'd get over his Eddy problem.

Anyway, I've got a couple of pedantic points:

(1) I disagree that I am never pompous, pedantic, or inscrutable (nor are such characteristics always flaws)(he says inscrutably).

(2) I don't see how Jim got the idea I've only got 2 rock-critic heroes (perhaps the copy desk shortened "two of Frank Kogan's rock-critic heroes"); the number is more like 200. Not to list them all (I don't come close to listing them all in the Acknowledgements), but note that I actually say on p. 341, "My first rock-critic hero was Ken Emerson." (Emerson's got a new book out about the Brill building; Christgau gave the book a rave.)

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 3 April 2006 17:51 (twenty years ago)

Many libraries will consider ordering a book if someone requests it: E.g., at the Denver Public Library site, you can click on "Not at DPL? Request it." And they say, "Use this form to request materials that DPL DOES NOT own. Please check the Library Catalog first. We will do our best to satisfy your request by purchasing the item for the DPL collection or by borrowing it from another library."

(You can do this even if you already own a copy of the book, hint hint. You can do this at every library where you have a library card.)

James, it may take the UGA Library a while to process a new book. I'll get in touch with UGA Press and tell them that the library still doesn't have the book. In the meantime, if the book is available at any of local stores, thumb through it and take a look at p. 43.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 3 April 2006 18:01 (twenty years ago)

JdR's very competitive in a petty way. He was on WNYC here last week, promoting his Flaming Lips bio and like the 2nd or 3rd thing he said was a cheap shot at "hagiographers" N Strauss and A Powers. Guess he can't help himself.

Speaking of that, Frank, the show he was on -- Soundcheck -- would be an ideal venue for publicizing RPDWB. Hopefully your publisher is on it but if you want contact info email my private add via ILXOR.

m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 3 April 2006 18:06 (twenty years ago)

how about getting UGA to fix their online ordering? they ask you to dwnld a pdf and order by fax or call an 800 number.

Beta (abeta), Monday, 3 April 2006 18:08 (twenty years ago)

ordered a copy today

anthony easton (anthony), Monday, 3 April 2006 19:48 (twenty years ago)

Ditto.

jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Monday, 3 April 2006 19:52 (twenty years ago)

Well, yeah, JdR has flaws (and insecurities, natch), but since he's just given me a nice review, this isn't really the time for me to go into them.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 4 April 2006 22:09 (twenty years ago)

haha "natch"

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 00:34 (twenty years ago)

Publisher's Weekly via amazon.com:

"Kogan has been writing about music for some 35 years—for his own blogs; for his zine, Why Music Sucks; as well as for Spin, Radio On and the Village Voice."

So, Frank, you have...blogs?

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 01:03 (twenty years ago)

he's the...MYSTERY POLLSTER!

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 03:12 (twenty years ago)

frank should have a blog on the voice website. that would rule.

geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 03:16 (twenty years ago)

that should so happen; breihan and sylvester overlapped too much as is (or was). PLUS (unlike with some old farts cajoled into blogging) i think kogan would be really really good at it AND it would be really good for him in the same way that doing real life top 10 in the 80s was good for griel marcus in that it forced him to turn on a radio every now and then, notice everything, etc. AND (perhaps most importantly) it'd be really really really good for musicblogging in that it would revive the once common now rare practice of WRITING in depth and thinking in depth and loosely and following whatever digression in a way you can't in blender instead of the current norm of 'omg _____'s show was awesome' or 'omg that new ______ record is just slaying me' or 'haha - here's a link' post-it notes.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 03:35 (twenty years ago)

objectivity is asymptotic

literalisp (literalisp), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 05:42 (twenty years ago)

It just occurred to me, I wonder if UCI is getting this.

*checks*

No record yet. I could theoretically pretend it's a Reserves order but I'm not THAT flaky. I'll make a request and see if there's some traction.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 05:46 (twenty years ago)

just started training at the central auckl4nd public library & had some downtime which I used to request copies of this, some new chinese fiction & the paper rad book. gonna get my own copy from amazon when my first paycheck comes in (tho the us-nz exchange rate has gotten pretty brutal again).

etc, Wednesday, 5 April 2006 05:50 (twenty years ago)

Just ordered this from Amazon.

Harpal (harpal), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 07:53 (twenty years ago)

Stacey, the wonderful publicist at UGA Press, says "We are working toward having an online shopping cart, but right now we still have to use the old fashioned call up the warehouse route. Online shopping is pretty advanced technology for most university presses, and since we don't have a lot of time or money to devote to it, it's slow going. But hopefully it will be up and running in the next few months." Also says, "I've never known any library to be quick about getting new books on the shelf." Of course, it never hurts to keep bugging them.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 14:28 (twenty years ago)

Also, thanks Huk-L and James and Geeta and the rest of you for all the kind words.

The Publisher's Weekly reviewer probably just assumed that "Internet" meant "blog." But recently I've started listing my "blog" like so:

/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?thread.php?msgid=6585005

I've twice asked the Voice to pay me to post online on their site, first time back in 2002 in a long after-midnight email to Doug Simmons (excerpts from it became chapter 18 of Real Punks; can be summarized pithily as "So if you're listening, there's so much more to me you haven't seen"), then again a couple of months ago, on the heels of my pay cut, in a long email to Nick Catucci, wherein I asked for a weekly column. Catucci ended up quitting as online Voice boss shortly after that, so I don't know what he thought of the idea. I think they're insane not to take me up on it, since they can get me for about a third what they'd have to pay for equivalent-length pieces in the regular section, and one online link a week is hardly clogging up their Webspace, if it turns out I only get a specialty audience. I'd probably re-work the proposal a bit, since I feel that I'm clicking with pop music now in a way that I wasn't last October and I'd probably therefore bring it into the proposal.

I wouldn't want to be on Breihan's and Sylvester's beat - for one thing, they're amazing, churning out all that copy, and I think the Voice is exploiting them terribly, but also I couldn't do as well either at Breihan's straight-up reporting and real-time journo-musical analysis or at Sylvester's running wise-brat vaudeville act. There are some things that the young and hip do better than I. But I wish someone would pay me to do what I do better than anyone else in the world, which is to probe and to question and to ask the sociomusical "why," relentlessly but also as accessibly as I can. And dammit, I'll tell you why a lyric such as "So if you're listening, there's so much more to me you haven't seen" matters, better than anyone else'll tell you.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 16:38 (twenty years ago)

I admit when I see you mention Sylvester I'm all, "Um, wait."

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 April 2006 16:46 (twenty years ago)

"References body parts in his reviews"
Harp Magazine

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 10 April 2006 17:10 (twenty years ago)

There's a nice review in the current issue of Frieze. (Not online though.)

Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Monday, 17 April 2006 18:08 (twenty years ago)

Thanks for pointing this out, Marcel. The review is online now, here.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 24 April 2006 12:57 (twenty years ago)

Real Punks Don’t Wear Black
Frank Kogan, (University of Georgia Press, Atlanta [Athens, actually], Georgia, 2006)
Steven Stern

Frank Kogan is a rock critic, which means he writes about things like Slade’s 'music-hall chug' and the 'raging coldness' in Donna Summer's voice. It means he wonders how, in the heyday of Bob Dylan and the Rolling Stones, 'self-destruction came to be the truest noise on the radio'. And being a rock critic also means – for Kogan, at least – that how you write is as central to the job description as what you write about, because the value of the subject is always up for grabs. Because the subject of the subject is always up for grabs. Because the fans and the drugs and the hairstyles and the arguments and the anger and the boredom are as much a part of pop music as the music and the critic, the reader and the whole compromised, idealistic enterprise of criticism. So the best writing needs to be as sharp, romantic, challenging and catchy as what it's trying to describe, but also willing to be as profane, stupid, noisy and contradictory.

And that's why Kogan's brilliant, all-over-the-map collection Real Punks Don’t Wear Black has something to offer people who – unlike the author – don't fret much about whether Mariah Carey is great or god awful or what. (And also why a lot of readers might end up throwing the damn thing across the room.) The book brings together essays and reviews published in the Village Voice, articles from Kogan's long-running cult fanzine Why Music Sucks, letters to editors and friends, Internet message board postings, poetry and big chunks of adolescent journals. You get 'the whole mess of Frank' – from acting out to heavy-duty theory-spinning. And you get 'music writing' that’s also about the social terrors of junior high school, about the lure and numbness of the suburbs, about how communities are created and threatened, about bohemian self-hatred, about the limits of deconstruction and ultimately about what music writing – in fact, all writing – can and should do.

In Kogan's terms, being a rock critic is about broadening the idea of what counts as criticism. Not everything counts, but because everything potentially can, you need to risk being ridiculous and rigorous to figure out what is worth saying. Music – and all the other stuff it includes – is, most essentially 'an activity in which people participate': a social activity and therefore an intellectual activity. Which means: Kogan is a rock critic because he's interested in thinking, specifically in those forms of thinking called 'rock' and 'criticism'. So he treats the New York Dolls as his favourite philosophers and Ludwig Wittgenstein as his favourite band. (You just know he has 'meaning is use' written on his loose-leaf notebook in purple magic marker.) He writes as if he’s dancing, fighting, killing time and trying to change the world.
—Steven Stern

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 24 April 2006 13:06 (twenty years ago)

"he treats the New York Dolls as his favourite philosophers and Ludwig Wittgenstein as his favourite band"

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 24 April 2006 13:07 (twenty years ago)


Being compared to Nolte & Murphy is certainly better than to Abbott & Costello.

calvino ray, Thursday, 27 April 2006 18:42 (twenty years ago)

That is just what I was trying to tell Eddie last night. Open Letter To Steven Stern: Go take a cold shower bitch, he's MINE.

The Big Fat Chick With A BoomBox, Thursday, 27 April 2006 19:16 (twenty years ago)

Kogan Hot

A friend of mine here in Denver tells me:

"my daughter who lives in Athens says your book is 'hot' amongst the in group"

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 28 April 2006 16:17 (twenty years ago)

ahem ahem

j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 28 April 2006 16:26 (twenty years ago)

A heaping serving of fluff love

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 2 May 2006 14:45 (twenty years ago)

(By the way James, did the UGA library ever get the book?)

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 2 May 2006 14:47 (twenty years ago)

yes! i might be checking it out, i gotta alot of homework and i'm meaning to read this history of Populism i checked out plus i'm curious about that iran crisis 79 book that came out and that '31 days in the ford administration' book so it might be a little while. i got an email from a dude at uga press or something asking about writing something on it maybe for flagpole which provoked some roffles cuz i don't see flagpole answering my phonecalls anytime soon but i might 'pitch' it somewhere though bridges burnt in this town o brother. plus i can't write. i can use thirty bucks though so we'll see.

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 2 May 2006 14:58 (twenty years ago)

dammit James you be glad there are two copies (I think) - my girlfriend's picking up one for me today from the UGA library.

Josh Love (screamapillar), Tuesday, 2 May 2006 15:02 (twenty years ago)

josh are you writing it up for the banana-herald?

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 2 May 2006 15:04 (twenty years ago)

nah, they stopped giving me space for album reviews about 6 weeks ago, so looks like I'm taking my services elsewhere.

(ps i will be buying a copy of the book ultimately i'm sure).

Josh Love (screamapillar), Tuesday, 2 May 2006 15:06 (twenty years ago)

Hi-hoy-dila-hoy-dila-diddle-dum-bang-,-hi-hoy-dila-hi-dila-bloom!
Got the copy of Frank's book today. O-yeh, at long last. Gonna go a-readin' soon :)

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Tuesday, 2 May 2006 15:13 (twenty years ago)

meaning to read this history of Populism

I first saw "meaning to read this history of Poptimism."

Is "banana-herald" a cross between The International Edition of the New York Herald Tribune and Gwen Stefani's "Hollaback Girl"?

bridges burnt in this town o brother

The one humorous line on Kelly Clarkson's Breakaway is "It's not a light at the end of the tunnel tonight/Just a bridge that I gotta burn" (line courtesy of DioGuardi or Shanks).

(It's a great album though, even if it's lacking in yuk-yuks.)

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 2 May 2006 15:44 (twenty years ago)

ive just finished it, and you dont have the same signifers that i do, but i found it touching, funny, open and rather genorous...i was duly impressed.

anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 2 May 2006 15:47 (twenty years ago)

I've long been meaning to post about how Kelefa Sanneh and Tom Breihan are the two best day-in-day-out writers on music in the commercial press. ("Day-in-day-out" means they're posting at least three to five times a week for someone who pays. Obviously some of you are up there with Tom and Kelefa on the basis of what you post here, but "here" unfortunately does not pay and does not bring you to the general reader.) Anyway, what Breihan wrote last week about Real Punks just confirms my high opinion of the fellow (also the fact that he and I were the only two people to vote for "Knuck If You Buck" in the '04 P&J):

I've been spending a lot of time lately with Frank Kogan's Real Punks Don't Wear Black, probably the best non-Lester Bangs collected-music-writing book I've ever read, even if he does include all these long-ass unreadable screeds he wrote when he was like twelve. Probably my favorite idea within the book is the Superword, which Kogan describes a lot better than I could:

"A Superword is a word like 'punk,' which is, among other things, a battleground, a weapon, a red cape, a prize, a flag in a bloody game of Capture the Flag. To put this in the abstract, a Superword is a word or phrase that not only is used in flights but that is itself fought over. The fight is over who gets to wear the word proudly, who gets the word affixed to himself against his will, etc. So the use is fought over, and this - the fight over usage - is a big part of the word's use."

That's about the simplest Kogan ever puts it, and he devotes pages and pages to this thing. His favorite example is "punk," but virtually every genre of music becomes a Superword at some point or another; people start fighting over what exactly it is and what can and can't claim that status. My favorite Superword is a term I try to never use: hip-hop.

[Then a whole bunch of stuff about Christina Aguilera and Premier and the fight over "real hip-hop."]

So, anyway, what do you guys think of the concept Superword? We talked about it a whole lot on the Key to deconstructing C Eddy / S Reynolds thread, if you want to know more. I pulled whole hunks of stuff bodily from that thread and put them in my Superwords chapter, including long quotes from Sterling, Tom E., and Tracer. Here's how I elaborated on that concept in the thread:

A Superword is a controversy word, but not all controversy words are Superwords; for what makes a Superword really super is that some people use the word so that it will jettison adherents and go skipping on ahead of any possible embodiment. Like, no one and nothing is good enough to bear the word "punk," and I wouldn't join a band that would have someone like me as a member anyway. (Supposedly, in the late '80s I once claimed that Michael Jackson and Axl Rose were the only two punks going at the time.) "Rock," "pop," "punk," and many other genre names sometimes act as Superwords. So "punk" (for instance) can be an ideal, and every single song that aspires to be punk can fall short in someone's ears. But for the word to be super, not only must people disagree on the ideal, but some people must consciously or unconsciously keep changing what the word or ideal is supposed to designate so that the music is always inadequate to the ideal, even if the music would have been adequate to yesterday's version of the ideal. And the music then chases after this ever-changing ideal. Words bounce on ahead, and the music comes tumbling after.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 16:17 (twenty years ago)

Have rockism and popism become the opposite of Superwords--Stuporwords that some people think are Superwords--always lagging behind and clogging debate and thinking?

Raw Patrick (Raw Patrick), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 16:52 (twenty years ago)

http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=15737

Edward III (edward iii), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 16:59 (twenty years ago)

"Rockism" is a stupor word for sure. The reason is that no one aspires to rockism, hence no one's trying to up the ante and make rockism better than anyone can be. Well, that's one reason it's a stupor word. I still think my idea of "PBS" [which I'm not going to explain in this post, but it's a hell of a lot more subtle and interesting than the concept "rockism"] is potentially viable despite our not usually aspiring to be PBS, either. The concept nonetheless pertains to what we're like, to some of our aspirations.

I once pitched the idea of an article entitled "Antirockism Is for Teacher's Pets." The title of course would be to get the attention of the antirockists and to dent their self-image, and I think the designation "teacher's pet" is psychologically and socially acute as well; but underlying the piece would be my assumption that the pets - who are people I sympathize with, basically - are trying to tell their own truth and that they probably have an interesting truth to tell, if they can find their way to it and not settle for comforting half-truths. The dynamic in antirockism is that the antirockist has put defeating people ahead of trying to understand them, so the antirockist projects his own ideas onto supposed "rockists" but in really stupid form, so he gains an easy victory over an imaginary foe.

A friend of mine, old enough to know better, once explained his dislike of the Backstreet Boys by complaining that the Backstree Boys don't even write their own songs. The thing is, my friend doesn't know why he dislikes the Backstreet Boys. "They don't write their own songs" is a placeholder, an "explanation" that gives him the excuse not to probe himself for the real reasons. Now, if we call this guy a "rockist," this means we aren't interested in why he dislikes the Backstreet Boys either.

But if my piece says no more than this, it hasn't accomplished much. The goal is to bring the antirockist back to the impulses, experiences, battles, and nascent ideas that were bubbling in and around him before he stepped sideways into the fake discussion about "rockism." In other words, I want the antirockist to reflect on who he is, what social groups he belongs to, what his gang affiliations are, and what the relationship is between his opinions and his social commitments. And even more, I want to ask what the world is that produces this guy - it's usually a guy - and that produces these opinions, this whole discussion.

If I had to I could come up with a pretty accurate description of something called "rockism": basically, a bunch of loosely related - and really irritating - habits and justifications for saying why what you like is more real than what someone else likes. But the reason I can't put myself at odds with the supposed "rockist" is that I don't think there's anything wrong in principle with saying something's more real than something else - I'm willing to call myself a real thinker, and say that person X is not a real thinker - and when you come down to it, I have exactly the same impulses the supposed "rockist" does in regard to "authenticity," even if I take my impulses to more interesting places. To explain it briefly: the "authenticity" issue is about one's relationship to authority and to social pressure. The Hero Story it draws on has the Performer in defiance of Authority. It isn't about who writes the song but about who seems to be groveling in front of whom and where one's own fandom puts one in relation to authority. The reason there's so much obfuscation in the discussion of "rockism" is that there's no way not to buy into the Hero Story, but there's no way to tell the story honestly without connecting yourself to the groveling. (Well, that's vague enough. I don't think I can explain my argument briefly. But my book explains it well enough and without resorting to the buzz word "rockism.")

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 21:48 (twenty years ago)

OK, a brief elaboration:

The supposed problem with the Backstreet Boys isn't that they're not singing their own song but that they're singing the record company's and the audience's song. But then we have to pretend that the person singing to us isn't singing our song. But how is it possible not to sing the audience's song?

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 22:04 (twenty years ago)

The description of "PBSification" which i got from the first volume of Why Music Sucks I think handily replaced the notion of "indiefication" in my head - and from a historical perspective it's worth noting that the original seismic conflicts on ILM weren't w/r/t rockism/anti-rockism but indie vs pop... so maybe in subsequently choosing what appeared to me a more analytically rigorous opposition, ILM as a community actually moved away from the more interesting issues.

As much as I have discussed rockism/anti-rockism as much as anyone over the last six years or so, the debate is an irritating one because it always ends up returning to the same banal dead ends. Most of the really interesting brain gruntwork done on this topic has been that which perhaps inadvertently moves beyond the opposition, which struggles to go back and tenuously redefine itself as working in service of the cause of one side or the other... and perhaps therefore should just stop worrying and try to attach itself to - or better, create from scratch - a different kind of critical language.

I think Mitch once said that my relationship to Britney as a performer (specifically vis a vis "Born To Make You Happy") was post-rockist, and I wonder if (though he will likely disagree with me on this) Frank's critical appraisal of Ashlee Simpson is not similar. Which is to say that the relationship values a notion of authenticity which is not about external empirical validation but personal identification (Hero Story stuff, in Frank language). The issue is not whether we believe in and value a notion of "realness", but how honest we are about our differing notions of realness.

I still think it's worth thinking about the way that music fandom - and especially music criticism - functions by way of analogical imposition (in so far as we talk about different artists and different types of music and different impulses and logics within music by way of comparison to others) and how this serves to both define and limit the possibilities of what we can think about music. But the rockist/anti-rockist dichotomy can usually only approach this in an overly dramatised [x] or [y] manner.

Relevant here perhaps is the tension b/w the injunction to "value artists/styles on their own terms" (immanent judgment) versus intermingling these terms and using different artist/genre criteria to throw a different light on the music in question (as chuck might say, why shouldn't I ask whether this rock song is good or bad disco?).

I was thinking yesterday that it's a bit like those superhero universe-crossovers - Batman vs Superman, or Aliens vs Predator. "Would Batman best Superman in a fight?" Should we complain that it's unfair to pit Batman against Superman because Batman isn't actually superhuman and the whole point of the Batman universe is that of an ordinary man using skill, strategy and technology to punch above his weight? Or does this only serve to close down our thinking about what the "whole point" of Batman might be?

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 00:10 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps this explained more fully elsewhere, but why is "they don't write their own songs" not a genuine reason one can give to dislike a song, band, or genre -- why is it merely a placeholder, an excuse, rather than a real reason?

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 00:29 (twenty years ago)

How do we know who really writes their own songs? Even if we stand there and watch somebody write it down(might've been memorized from another source).

don, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 00:41 (twenty years ago)

I mean, maybe it *is* insufficient insofar as "they don't write their own songs" describes maybe only the most obvious facet of a well-oiled culture machine that robs performers of their autonomy and their ability to express themselves while making cash for shadow forces in the background. But when people say "I don't like [blank] because they don't write their own songs, I *think* I understand these larger implications and how they're implied (how's that for redundant?) by "they don't write their own songs" -- and I think I understand that the user of such a phrase is trying to imply the larger implications, too.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 00:41 (twenty years ago)

also writing own songs = individuality (must posit individual with all options open to achieve self fuffilment) = Liberalism... but writing / not writing own songs doesn't matter really cos we can imagine, can't lose the individual if it's singing or perfroming or etc. Liberalism is good ; ROCK is GOOD but so is POP we can still call it ROCK thou cos i say so, love theodore gracyk. dance culture fuxks thoery somewhat.

pscott (elwisty), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 00:48 (twenty years ago)


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.