Ashlee Simpson: Emo or Oh no?

Anthony, whether you hear punk in Ashlee or not (I don't see how the statement quoted in your first post in any way DEPENDS on thinking Ashlee has any punk in her), how exactly do Alex's comments on this thread NOT suggest that he "can't conceive of someone from Ashlee's social demographic making punk, because someone like Ashlee can't possibly have the attitudes that makes one a punk, can't possibly understand"? "Ashlee Simpson is a living, breathing Mr. Potato-Head, all trussed up in conventionally 'punk' finery, but her music, her message, her aspirations for stardom are strictly teen pop to the bone AND. NOTHING. MORE"? "Just because "punk" might arguably mean many things, doesn't mean it means everything. Gloppy, cookie-cutter, glossy, sickly, candy-colored, slickly-produced teenybopper radio fodder it does NOT mean"? "Teen pop", "aspirations for stardom," "teenybopper radio fodder", "trussed up in conventionally 'punk' finery" --sorry, but that IS her social demographic. I'm not even saying I necessarily agree with Frank's statement there; I'd have to give it more thought. And like Sang Freud (and Frank) I am *glad* Alex is on this thread; he makes the discussion *better,* and he exemplifies an important point of view. Hell, he might even be *right*, for all I know. But if his dismissals on this thread aren't an example of thinking punk from Ashlee's demographic is impossible, they're certainly a pretty good imitation.

But I guess what I'm saying is that if we're so sure about the future, maybe we'll be blindsided when it doesn't turn out like that at all.

Rolling 2005 Country Thread

People write as much there about what Big & Rich, Broooks and Dunn, Montgomery Gentry etc (and countless other such acts) do wrong as about what they do right. None of those acts get a free ride, and neither does anybody else. Doesn't seem uncritical to me at all.

Well, yeah -- see what Frank said about Latin freestyle in 1987 (which he mentions above). I think that was part of his point. But hey, being blindsided might be part of the fun, you know?

Well, if the Duhks or Donna the Buffalo or Patrica Vonne or the Warsaw Village Band or Dallas Wayne or Bill Kirchen (all of whom I like, and praise on that thread) (and who, first off, are in some ways MORE conservative than the Nashville acts you've decided to rope together as "conservative" for some reason I don't quite get) made as good an album as Miranda Lambert's, they might rise farther up the pole. I'm still not sure what your point is. That people there tend to prefer pop country to alt country? Well, some do. I do! But that doesn't mean I accept the former or criticize the latter blindly, or that I don't like lots of the latter better than lots of the former. (And there are people on there who like alt-country way more than I do. Edd Hurt and Don Allred defend it quite often, it seems to me.)

and ...

>"Teen pop", "aspirations for stardom," "teenybopper radio fodder", "trussed up in conventionally 'punk' finery" --sorry, but that IS her social demographic<

So, he's being accused of bias? It's not that he just thinks that Ashlee Simpson - 'trussed up in etc.' with her 'teenybopper radio fodder' - happens to stink; it's that he couldn't possibly conceive of someone like her ever doing something good?

(And people defend Steve Earle on there too, come to think of it!)

xp

But either way, this question should really end "punk," not "good," Tim. The question is whether Alex could possibly conceive of someone like her ever doing something punk (whether it's good or not).

Passive aggressively yours,

Frank

And Alex, I think you have a lot to teach me. I just wonder how to drag your knowledge out of you.

(Back to the day gig.)

Pure projection, and wrong. NO ONE actually thinks this. come on now, we are ten years past both Dookie and Nevermind, for God's sake. It's been done, and much better.

"Hell, [Alex] might even be *right*, for all I know."

He is.

Parting comment: Ashlee Simpson's is simply not Punk Rock. If an alien from another world appeared and earnestly asked to be shown examples of Punk Rock, would you cite Ashlee?

wiDow

"not until you explain why bad things happen to good people!"

= i. i want my zimmer frame and i WANT IT NOW
= ii. haha if ilm has demonstrated ANYTHING it is that in 20 years time we will still be discussing the merits of EVERYONE

i.&ii. are nicely contradictory hence mark s = punk-as-fuck

in communion (my second favourite film EVAH) christopher walken discovers the aliens DISCO DANCING

In other words, I'm not allowed to muck around with FACTS, specifically the FACT that Ashlee Simpson in NO WAY Punk Rock.

If an alien from another world appeared and earnestly asked to be shown examples of Punk Rock, i wd point to alex's heroically changeless mr.dadrock-gets-uptight declamations down decades of ilm, and say, "punk is the OPPOSITE OF THAT"

I've never claimed to be the embodiment of Punk Rock.

In any event, this thread has been terrific and has helped me greatly in pulling my thoughts together; especially thank you to Cunga and to Phil for your descriptions of the Ashlee image.

Also, thanks to me for suckering mark s back onto ILX.

now let us never speak of it again.

I know that someone might jump on that and tell me that you can't separate your aesthetic perceptions from your background and your psychological makeup, but what would someone be trying to establish by saying something like this?

Tim, someone (i.e., me) isn't trying to "establish" anything but rather trying to cajole, incite, inspire, badger you folks into saying why you hear a particular piece of music in a particular way. And that involves (1) describing what's going on in the music when you hear glossiness or rawness of punk or whatever, and (2) what's going on in your life that makes you hear glossiness or rawness or punk (esp. when other people are hearing something else).

Maybe social categories are aesthetic categories; it doesn't really matter to me which you use to explain the other; it does matter that you make an effort to explain - that is to say that you make an effort to communicate your experience and your ideas and that you make an attempt to explore where those experiences and ideas come from and why you in particular have and hold them. Of course, you can just spend your time stating an opinion and holding it against all comers. That's what a lot of ILX threads are, basically.

So, everyone who votes blue is a punk, and therefore is not eligible for "conversion"?

I don't think I've heard a Steve Earle song in my life, but I'll guess that one of the reasons that Montgomery Gentry might come across as "more punk" than Earle is that they're bullies and creeps and he apparently isn't a bully or a creep. (Nowadays Montgomery is dressing his creepiness in unctuousness and piety, which makes it even creepier.) Also, my guess is that Earle doesn't rock as hard as they do. That seems to be the general opinion. By the way, Montgomery Gentry are punk way way way way WAY more often than Ashlee is. I hadn't given a thought to Ashlee's being punk until I heard "I Am Me" a couple of weeks ago and read posted on this thread that her image apparently has something to do with punk as conceived by who knows who. Montgomery Gentry don't have punk in their image. They merely act like punks. (And I don't think anyone called them "punk" at all until a couple of days ago, when for half a sentence I did, when the discussion here spilled briefly back onto the Rolling Country thread. But I'm not seeing enough of the board these days, so you may be right, that they're being touted as punks.)

What in the world is "punk traditionalism"? What's a punk tradition? Killing your girlfriend? Dyeing your hair pink and purple? (I once saw Todd Rundgren with rainbow hair, in 1974. What a punk!)

I don't see Ashlee as doing much in the way of transgression either. So what?

"it sure looks and sounds like punk is something Ashlee picked up at the mall."

Again, so what? Where's she supposed to pick it up, in a whorehouse?

pauline kael, j.d. salinger, james thurber = more punk than ashlee simpson

it doesn't really matter to me which you use to explain the other; it does matter that you make an effort to explain - that is to say that you make an effort to communicate your experience and your ideas and that you make an attempt to explore where those experiences and ideas come from and why you in particular have and hold them. Of course, you can just spend your time stating an opinion and holding it against all comers. That's what a lot of ILX threads are, basically.<

Frank, do you realize how preachy and self-righteous this sounds?

Looking back at your posts on this thread, I don't see as that you've done any of this either! Where does your idea that a song like "La La" is good come from? Why do you in particular think that this is so? What's going on in your life that makes you hear it as "good?"

Montgomery Gentry also remind me of the Ramones:

"You Beat Your Brat (I'll Beat Mine)"