★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

Everyone IS discerning; not everyone thinks of themselves as discerning. There is a gap between action and (unknowable) self-perception. Also, the word "discerning" has connotations of being a connoisseur, or rather someone with vested interest in being an arbiter of what is "good" and what is "bad"; my guess is that you would find most people are way less interested in being tastemakers or finding "the best" example of particular piece/style of music than pretty much everyone participating in this discussion.

Well sorry if I hurt contenderizer's feelings and ppl think I was being too mean

― arachno-misogynist (D-40), Friday, June 17, 2011 12:37 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark

shit, dude, we've been butting heads long enough that your style doesn't bug me. i mean, i'd be happy to unpack whatever, but i don't know that that would really help, and i'm not sure what you're looking for besides. fwiw, i was playing fast and loose w "mainstream" for a minute there, not being clear about whether i was referring to chartpop or "mainstream criticism." i tried to straighten that out in my last couple posts.

anyway, the big difference here, it seems to me, is that i'm not bothered by the indifference of critics to that with which they're not already at least somewhat familiar. nor am i bothered by the weird/predictable enthusiasms of "generalist" critics when it comes to genres they don't really understand. maybe i should be, but i'm not. when a critic who ought to know better proclaims this or that trivial hype object the greatest R&B album since voodoo, revealing primarily that they don't really pay much attention to the genre, i just shrug. i assume their enthusiasm is valid, even if they lack a frame of reference in which to adequately present it.

an example from my own life: i played the frank ocean mixtape for a modern R&B-hating friend of mine, and he fucking fell in love with it, played it for weeks on end, far more than i ever did, studied it inside and out. he still hates basically every other R&B artist i've ever played for him, except retro-type stuff, which he's still more-or-less indifferent to. i expect that he likes nostalgia, ultra because it bounces off touchstones that are meaningful to him, because its musical values are similar to his own, and because it's funny & seems smart in ways he can relate to. i.e., his enthusiasm is genuine, deeply felt and not the product of a simple lack of exposure to the genre (god knows i've tried). he's certainly not well-versed in the genre, but that's okay. i don't expect him to share my tastes & interests.

not that i'm "well-versed in the genre," mind. relative to folks like deej, i'm a curious neophyte.

just a quick qn did someone say the the weeknd album was the best r&b album since voodoo?

The flispide argument to that is that a lot of music critics are attempting to drive conversation about music via their choices of who te endorse and, as such, have a responsibility to either:

- be more than just passingly versed in genres they wish to talk about;
- be more up-front about their lack of genre knowledge when taking on unfamiliar genres

For some, the elevation of something that they consider mediocre due to the amount of time and energy they spend on a given genre by others who are not as familiar with the genre is incredibly maddening as it reinforces the idea that the things that appeal to them in the genre are not worthy of consideration. There's also the quota effect; generally speaking, when someone finds a piece of music or artist that scratches a particular itch, there is a tendency go back to that piece/artist and not explore any further. This is also going to frustrate someone who thinks you've picked the wrong artist.

Parts of this discussion are really going past each other because of the tastemaker/consumer divide and how strongly people are embracing their chosen roles, IMO, and I think some of that is happening because after two or three listens there isn't much reason for a good number of us to go back to The Weeknd's album, so it's weird that it's really resonant for others.

I'm not sure I agree that people less invested in the discourse are per se less invested in being discerning but I think to respond further or more credibly I need to not be posting from a phone under my desk at work

For some, the elevation of something that they consider mediocre due to the amount of time and energy they spend on a given genre by others who are not as familiar with the genre is incredibly maddening as it reinforces the idea that the things that appeal to them in the genre are not worthy of consideration. There's also the quota effect; generally speaking, when someone finds a piece of music or artist that scratches a particular itch, there is a tendency go back to that piece/artist and not explore any further. This is also going to frustrate someone who thinks you've picked the wrong artist.

totally get this, and that's what i was pointing out. i'm just not bothered by this. i'm not bothered even bothered when it comes to genres i'm deeply invested in and artists i seriously dislike. maybe it has something to do with the critic/consumer divide, but i suspect that it's more the product of different personality types. shit like this doesn't ruffle me. the first thing i think is not, "well, they don't know shit" (unless what they're saying is badly written, stupid or factually incorrect). instead my default position is, "hey, at least they got something out of it."

you're right that critics should be more up-front about their own ignorance when it's a factor. don't really expect that, but it'd be nice. don't agree, though, that they need to be well-versed in the genres they wish to talk about, especially if they're not really talking about the genre, per se, but simply this or that artist w/in it. expertise is great, but sometimes a good, strong response is enough, especially when it comes to "consumer guide" type crit.

lol deej

Do you really think ILX is any more socially advanced than a middle school?! I've thought of the mods as janitors and assistant principals ever since I became one.

― Mr. Patrick Batman (WmC), Friday, June 17, 2011 4:05 PM

looooooooooool

middle schools don't have Ned Raggett.

at least not since the '80s

totally get this, and that's what i was pointing out. i'm just not bothered by this. i'm not bothered even bothered when it comes to genres i'm deeply invested in and artists i seriously dislike. maybe it has something to do with the critic/consumer divide, but i suspect that it's more the product of different personality types. shit like this doesn't ruffle me. the first thing i think is not, "well, they don't know shit" (unless what they're saying is badly written, stupid or factually incorrect). instead my default position is, "hey, at least they got something out of it."

you're right that critics should be more up-front about their own ignorance when it's a factor. don't really expect that, but it'd be nice. don't agree, though, that they need to be well-versed in the genres they wish to talk about, especially if they're not really talking about the genre, per se, but simply this or that artist w/in it. expertise is great, but sometimes a good, strong response is enough, especially when it comes to "consumer guide" type crit.

― And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Friday, June 17, 2011 8:47 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this implies that we're mad at ppl who like the record, instead of mad at ppl who write about it poorly / have poor justifications for it -- if u agree that sucks then we agree

Everyone IS discerning; not everyone thinks of themselves as discerning. There is a gap between action and (unknowable) self-perception. Also, the word "discerning" has connotations of being a connoisseur, or rather someone with vested interest in being an arbiter of what is "good" and what is "bad"; my guess is that you would find most people are way less interested in being tastemakers or finding "the best" example of particular piece/style of music than pretty much everyone participating in this discussion.

― chupacabra - a delicious burrito (DJP), Friday, June 17, 2011 8:22 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

everyone might not think of themselves as discerning, but there is a 'i prefer to trust the experts' (c. calvin & hobbes) that comes into play -- ppl may not think they are discerning, but they like to trust people who are, too. There is, ime, an aura of 'worthiness' to the weeknd that other R&B artists dont get to have -- or, for ex, ne-yo might have that aura on ILX, but he doesn't more broadly w/in critical community.

an example of how this works is how, after sideways came out, sales of merlot plummeted. Did people know they didnt like merlot until they were told they didnt like merlot, etc

and i dont really think people need to be well-versed in their genre to talk about it, at all. The problem is the element of cliched thinking. Mark Richardson is not a hip hop guy but i thought his writing on Big L in his 2nd to last resonant frequency column was v. insightful. But he was bringing something to the table instead of parroting received wisdom -- it felt true, rather than what i dont like about that Reader quote: the way it purports to have authority on a genre that it is in fact selling short.

(which is weird too bcuz i generally like the dude who wrote it -- i was surprised by that quote)

lol kev

is this the Brown v. Ocean thread

i still don't understand why people still group this guy & frank ocean together aside from the fact that they both put out albums w/in a few weeks of each other

lol r&beef

just crackin open my first PBR gettin ready to watch some twitter beef

did drake bite the weeknd's swag or were they both doing it at the same time? the visual aestehtic of XO and OVO, the cryptic launguage, b&w photography, etc

also what's the deal with drake loving cough syrup all of a sudden

2011 is weird

also what's the deal with drake loving cough syrup all of a sudden

he hangs out tons w/ lil wayne?

drake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the weeknd honestly

I fucks with that "dreams money can buy" song

no he doesnt! they KNOW each other lets face it

idk syrup is pretty prevalent in rap culture

i wish drake, wayne & ross would just put their albums out on the same day & packaged together, maybe even they could be on every single song on each other's albums & have their own radio station for those songs

lil wayne would never take the time to take this picture, he loves drugs, he'd drink it up not find a cute photo for his instagram

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-C2g1nh7379w/Ter-8HViNII/AAAAAAAAAIE/9QPgQW6InXk/s1600/IMG-20110529-00044.jpg

he's so excited about his new toy

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FRHyIakxD6o/TeNOh5VZEjI/AAAAAAAADb4/vNFsPKQAT00/s1600/mwr.jpg

middle schools don't have Ned Raggett.

― hay lbj hayyy (absolutely clean glasses), Friday, June 17, 2011 5:11 PM (20 minutes ago)

at least not since the '80s

― hay lbj hayyy (absolutely clean glasses), Friday, June 17, 2011 5:11 PM (19 minutes ago)

seriously? this is too bad. I was definitely the Ned at my jr. high, but that was in the 70s. I think there must be a few schools where it's still safe to be Ned, but gee, maybe not.

i think the problem here is that you're following (?) drake on instagram

haha wow that is extremely lame

like people who tweet about how drunk/high they are

its not on instagram dude its on his web site

his blog that looks exactly like the weeknd's blog

everyone might not think of themselves as discerning, but there is a 'i prefer to trust the experts' (c. calvin & hobbes) that comes into play -- ppl may not think they are discerning, but they like to trust people who are, too. There is, ime, an aura of 'worthiness' to the weeknd that other R&B artists dont get to have -- or, for ex, ne-yo might have that aura on ILX, but he doesn't more broadly w/in critical community.

an example of how this works is how, after sideways came out, sales of merlot plummeted. Did people know they didnt like merlot until they were told they didnt like merlot, etc

I think we are making complimentary points, not oppositional. The baseline that anchors both is "ppl itt are mad at the writers, not the listeners".

(Also I don't find it surprising that Mark R would write well on stuff in a genre outside of what ppl would assume to be his sweet spot because in interactions here he's always had a very even-handed, holistic take on the music being discussed; "admit your lack of knowledge" is not the right way to express that approach but I intended to included and just didn't because lol too many words + something shiny)

I meant the actual Ned Raggett!

xposts

http://octobersveryown.blogspot.com/2011/05/call-up-on-drank.html

haaa, yeah, I was thinking more of Ned the Universal Force

Excellent Deej and dan posts in this thread. Love that 'sideways' anecdote. I assume sales of Pinot noir went up?

Yeah the world is rife with what you might call amateur discernment, people explaining what are very basic decisions of taste by reference to qualitative distinctions with questionable evidentiary basis. The tribalism of music taste can obscure this actually but look at how people talk about the newspapers they read or the tv shows they watch (or more pertinently, those they don't).

yeah i mean -- does ANYONE actually say "i don't know much about music, i just like the stuff i hear on the radio"? it seems like the less people know about music, the more adamantly dogmatic they are about what music is good and what isn't and why

yeah i mean i think anyone today especially should be humble about that stuff when you're talking irl -- to be fair, i might be more curt/ jerk-ish on here because i feel like amongst music nerds the chains are sort of loosed, whereas IRL i have a bunch of friends who know all this shit about beer & when i'm like "yeah i'm not into beer x" they get all omg wtf apoplectic & im like, well, tbf i havent really thought about it or tried to think abt what is going on w/in beer discourse or whatever. Same way I dont judge them for talking about how omg great the last kanye album was. so sometimes i do prob use ilx as more of a sounding board for those kinds of "ugh terrible line of thought" dismissive tendencies (i think a lot of ppl do, here, probably w/ better results than me, but im saying)

xpost even moreso with movies

Yeah I think that's right, if anything I find myself much less dogmatic than people talk to IRL, always pointing out that even if some pronouncement they've made has purchase in some contexts it's not true across the board.

It is or should be a feature of paying closer attention to music that you start to realize most hard and fast rules aren't really sustainable.

who here cares only about the music they and their friends make

lets all make an album like right now right here

this talk of 'experts' just reminded me of this lol onion article, btw
http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-on-internet-almost-falls-into-world-of-diy-mus,17013/

xpost as long as it's not chillwave

this implies that we're mad at ppl who like the record, instead of mad at ppl who write about it poorly / have poor justifications for it -- if u agree that sucks then we agree

― arachno-misogynist (D-40), Friday, June 17, 2011 3:13 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

i started out by questioning an instance of what i see as the special and unwarranted enmity that some ILXes seem to reserve for indie-friendly critics who dabble in rap, R&B and dance music, and which is almost always accompanied by a sneering dismissal of the widely-hyped artists they flock around (the weeknd, in this case). we can all easily agree that egregiously bad writing/thinking is objectionable, but that's a different issue.

lots of indie-friendly critics flock around The-Dream and pretty much all the people sneering at The Weeknd itt listen to him

yeah, it's by no means black & white. but fwiw, i took a bunch of shit for joining the terius fan club circa love king and having incorrect opinions. deej just doesn't cotton to my manner of speech. which has maybe embittered me, i dunno. i can't pretend my interest here is completely objective/dispassionate.

well there is a lot of sneering within the terry squad, but it's all generally shades of difference in a shared fandom of the same artist