★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

maybe if you were more patronizing and obnoxious it would clear things up?

This is about peoples reasons for celebrating this stuff.

True. And it's been a real failure of pro-Weeknd critics that they've lauded the band more for its novelty than its merits.

the dialogue around them is still largely shaped by those Pitchforky associations.

Also very true, though I do think we're overstating the importance of that dialogue, or at least overstating it as part of the band's broad allure.

I have a bunch of bro-ish friends who don't much read about music, they just sort d/l whatever mixtapes rap blogs recommend, and that's how they discovered (and fell hard for) The Weeknd. They don't know about (and certainly wouldn't care about) critical buzz or Beach House samples or whatever. They're definitely more the "Entourage" set than the Pitchfork set, which seems to be a case with a lot of Weeknd fans.

you know Drake?

(i joke, but my point is everyone knows that The Weeknd has also reached that kind of audience because of who their most famous fan is)

Wait forks who's being patronizing? Ppl in glass houses probably shouldn't throw stones at people actually talking about the subject at hand.

i like that you're okay with obnoxious.

Wait forks who's being patronizing? Ppl in glass houses probably shouldn't throw stones at people actually talking about the subject at hand.

― arachno-misogynist (D-40), Friday, June 17, 2011 3:16 PM (49 seconds ago) Bookmark

lol what does this even mean

Evan but those guys, like anyone else, want to think that theyre being discerning when they go for that stuff... The default assumption is probably similar yo the guy from the reader: this stuff is better than "typical r&b", the thinking mans slow jams, etc, wouldn't u say?

Some dude that means that I think it is hypocritical of forks to patronize me when hes not even participating in the conversation - i'm sorry he thinks i'm being obnoxious w contenderizer but i'm not sure what I said that isn't true about his posts itt

I don't have a vested interest here but I am pathologically compelled to point out that "obnoxious" and "true" are not concepts that are opposition to each other; for example, the statement I am making in this post is true, but it is also obnoxious of me to jump into what is look like yet another "pile onto deej for not recognizing how his online rhetoric comes across" extravaganza

I'm not saying it's their fault for not knowing "real r&b" our whatever silly thing, just that the critics who heavily influence this discourse at the very least should resist those kind of easy characterizations, xps to my first post

At djp fair enough although I think there are hella double standards when it comes to ilxors being acceptably cruel vs idk needlessly condescending or w/e u guys think i'm doing

Well... yes! There are!

ilx assumption typically seems to be indie tastes and sensibilities are disproportionately represented in the critical dialogue

this seems almost self-evidently true to me but should be y/n polled to within an inch of its life imo

The default assumption is probably similar yo the guy from the reader: this stuff is better than "typical r&b", the thinking mans slow jams, etc

Ha. With all due respect to my guys, who I love, they're not really thinking man's anything. They don't think much about the art they consume, and they're certainly not self-conscious about it. If anything, they'd probably prefer a more ignorant update to slow jams to a smarter one.

So it's probably not the "braininess" or the "artiness" they're responding to, though it probably is the masculinity. That's probably also the appeal of Frank Ocean. It's good, unapologetic dude music.

there are hella double standards

there are currently 69 active users standards

Well sorry if I hurt contenderizer's feelings and ppl think I was being too mean

Or I guess really, I'm sorry I wasnt funnier when I was mean

Real ilx lesson = it's ok to be a dick as long as ppl are laughing

welcome to 2002

crosspost to tracy morgan thread

I was a lot more into Weeknd before I heard Frank Ocean and Nostalgia/ultra clearly blew W out the water.

Real ilx lesson of being alive in the world = it's ok to be a dick as long as ppl are laughing

Thats kind of jr high logic more than real world logic

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2007/05/serious_cat.jpg

Like, sometimes being a dick is being a dick, funny or not. At worst I was attacking ideas he presented in the thread as part out a discussion, not attacking him as a person or bringing up irl shit, which ppl on this board do all the time

Do you really think ILX is any more socially advanced than a middle school?! I've thought of the mods as janitors and assistant principals ever since I became one.

deej, I'm trying to discuss the weeknd here, could you keep it down?

I can't believe this managed to turn into *yet another* patronizing referendum on my posting style tho

Turquoise Jeep fans hating on hipster-approved R&B itt

lol

deej nobody's going to feel sorry for you because you're constantly trying to turn threads into a patronizing referendum on contenderizer's posting style

@evan you might be right about masculinity bring a defining attraction for them about it. But I think that tends to be coupled with a "discerning persons taste" a lot of the time! By thinking persons r&b I don't mean like, wire-reading contrast to functional music, per se; I think it could as easily be in opposition to, like, how pop chart music is seen as feminized, where masculine non-charting r&b is the discerning man's alternative

If weeknd dude drops a song 5% as good as lemme smang it ill eat my words

http://appraisalnewsonline.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/10/man_head_spinning.gif

I think Evan's point is that you are elevating "discerning" as a defining attribute when it seems like, if it comes into play at all, it's as a side-effect/afterthought.

deej nobody's going to feel sorry for you because you're constantly trying to turn threads into a patronizing referendum on contenderizer's posting style

― some dude, Friday, June 17, 2011 9:14 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

1 person sympathizes w/ deej here (me)

I dunno djp doesn't everyone think of themselves as discerning? This is good bcuz its not bad like x

Everyone IS discerning; not everyone thinks of themselves as discerning. There is a gap between action and (unknowable) self-perception. Also, the word "discerning" has connotations of being a connoisseur, or rather someone with vested interest in being an arbiter of what is "good" and what is "bad"; my guess is that you would find most people are way less interested in being tastemakers or finding "the best" example of particular piece/style of music than pretty much everyone participating in this discussion.

Well sorry if I hurt contenderizer's feelings and ppl think I was being too mean

― arachno-misogynist (D-40), Friday, June 17, 2011 12:37 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark

shit, dude, we've been butting heads long enough that your style doesn't bug me. i mean, i'd be happy to unpack whatever, but i don't know that that would really help, and i'm not sure what you're looking for besides. fwiw, i was playing fast and loose w "mainstream" for a minute there, not being clear about whether i was referring to chartpop or "mainstream criticism." i tried to straighten that out in my last couple posts.

anyway, the big difference here, it seems to me, is that i'm not bothered by the indifference of critics to that with which they're not already at least somewhat familiar. nor am i bothered by the weird/predictable enthusiasms of "generalist" critics when it comes to genres they don't really understand. maybe i should be, but i'm not. when a critic who ought to know better proclaims this or that trivial hype object the greatest R&B album since voodoo, revealing primarily that they don't really pay much attention to the genre, i just shrug. i assume their enthusiasm is valid, even if they lack a frame of reference in which to adequately present it.

an example from my own life: i played the frank ocean mixtape for a modern R&B-hating friend of mine, and he fucking fell in love with it, played it for weeks on end, far more than i ever did, studied it inside and out. he still hates basically every other R&B artist i've ever played for him, except retro-type stuff, which he's still more-or-less indifferent to. i expect that he likes nostalgia, ultra because it bounces off touchstones that are meaningful to him, because its musical values are similar to his own, and because it's funny & seems smart in ways he can relate to. i.e., his enthusiasm is genuine, deeply felt and not the product of a simple lack of exposure to the genre (god knows i've tried). he's certainly not well-versed in the genre, but that's okay. i don't expect him to share my tastes & interests.

not that i'm "well-versed in the genre," mind. relative to folks like deej, i'm a curious neophyte.

just a quick qn did someone say the the weeknd album was the best r&b album since voodoo?

The flispide argument to that is that a lot of music critics are attempting to drive conversation about music via their choices of who te endorse and, as such, have a responsibility to either:

- be more than just passingly versed in genres they wish to talk about;
- be more up-front about their lack of genre knowledge when taking on unfamiliar genres

For some, the elevation of something that they consider mediocre due to the amount of time and energy they spend on a given genre by others who are not as familiar with the genre is incredibly maddening as it reinforces the idea that the things that appeal to them in the genre are not worthy of consideration. There's also the quota effect; generally speaking, when someone finds a piece of music or artist that scratches a particular itch, there is a tendency go back to that piece/artist and not explore any further. This is also going to frustrate someone who thinks you've picked the wrong artist.

Parts of this discussion are really going past each other because of the tastemaker/consumer divide and how strongly people are embracing their chosen roles, IMO, and I think some of that is happening because after two or three listens there isn't much reason for a good number of us to go back to The Weeknd's album, so it's weird that it's really resonant for others.

I'm not sure I agree that people less invested in the discourse are per se less invested in being discerning but I think to respond further or more credibly I need to not be posting from a phone under my desk at work

For some, the elevation of something that they consider mediocre due to the amount of time and energy they spend on a given genre by others who are not as familiar with the genre is incredibly maddening as it reinforces the idea that the things that appeal to them in the genre are not worthy of consideration. There's also the quota effect; generally speaking, when someone finds a piece of music or artist that scratches a particular itch, there is a tendency go back to that piece/artist and not explore any further. This is also going to frustrate someone who thinks you've picked the wrong artist.

totally get this, and that's what i was pointing out. i'm just not bothered by this. i'm not bothered even bothered when it comes to genres i'm deeply invested in and artists i seriously dislike. maybe it has something to do with the critic/consumer divide, but i suspect that it's more the product of different personality types. shit like this doesn't ruffle me. the first thing i think is not, "well, they don't know shit" (unless what they're saying is badly written, stupid or factually incorrect). instead my default position is, "hey, at least they got something out of it."

you're right that critics should be more up-front about their own ignorance when it's a factor. don't really expect that, but it'd be nice. don't agree, though, that they need to be well-versed in the genres they wish to talk about, especially if they're not really talking about the genre, per se, but simply this or that artist w/in it. expertise is great, but sometimes a good, strong response is enough, especially when it comes to "consumer guide" type crit.

lol deej

Do you really think ILX is any more socially advanced than a middle school?! I've thought of the mods as janitors and assistant principals ever since I became one.

― Mr. Patrick Batman (WmC), Friday, June 17, 2011 4:05 PM

looooooooooool

middle schools don't have Ned Raggett.

at least not since the '80s

totally get this, and that's what i was pointing out. i'm just not bothered by this. i'm not bothered even bothered when it comes to genres i'm deeply invested in and artists i seriously dislike. maybe it has something to do with the critic/consumer divide, but i suspect that it's more the product of different personality types. shit like this doesn't ruffle me. the first thing i think is not, "well, they don't know shit" (unless what they're saying is badly written, stupid or factually incorrect). instead my default position is, "hey, at least they got something out of it."

you're right that critics should be more up-front about their own ignorance when it's a factor. don't really expect that, but it'd be nice. don't agree, though, that they need to be well-versed in the genres they wish to talk about, especially if they're not really talking about the genre, per se, but simply this or that artist w/in it. expertise is great, but sometimes a good, strong response is enough, especially when it comes to "consumer guide" type crit.

― And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Friday, June 17, 2011 8:47 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this implies that we're mad at ppl who like the record, instead of mad at ppl who write about it poorly / have poor justifications for it -- if u agree that sucks then we agree