Indie Guilt: C/D

dom are you going to black out now?

Anyone who engages in two-dimensional, broad-brush slags of indie people -- a group among whom I don't really number myself, by the way, although I do like a fair amount of indie label stuff -- is implicitly waiving their right to ever complain at receiving the same treatment.

Yes this is why indie people (in the general not the specific sense) got the broad-brush slags in the first place Phil! They claimed "mainstream" or "Top 40" as a genre = they got the same treatment back.

Nitsuh has misunderstood my point I think. I consciously said that I find people who listen to lots of things more interesting than people who listen to one thing, without specifying what that one thing might be. eg I think the Jay-Z/Nas thread is funny and entertaining but I also don't actually read it much.

(I'm also not saying that it's very difficult or effortful to listen to lots of things - my cousin Leila listens to lots of things - hip- hop, nu-metal, guitar pop, teen-pop, trance, big ballads, ragga - every time she puts on the NOW records I buy her.)

awwww, look. tom's trying to be revive a corpse.

I understand why you say this, but don't you think there's a subtext here (and this is the aspect of my "race card" post that wasn't in jest) that indie people gravitate towards forms of hip-hop that are somehow less "authentic" because they feel threatened by -- or at least a lack of affinity towards -- certain aspects of African-American culture? I think it's rather that indie people tend to be quite interested/obsessed in/by the question of what the artist means to do with his art/how the artist conceives of his art (sc. "/her") and Arrested Development/De La Soul/etc telegraph their punches in this regard

Though the crossover of Naughty By Nature's f'in' brilliant and f'in' hard-ass debut remains a mystery to this day

people who listen to lots of things
Unless it's hiding fear of commitment.

Though the crossover of Naughty By Nature's f'in' brilliant and f'in' hard-ass debut remains a mystery to this day.

it might have something to do with hooks.

Yes this is why indie people...got the broad-brush slags in the first place Phil! They claimed "mainstream" or "Top 40" as a genre = they got the same treatment back.

Er, I already figured that one out, Tom...:-) My point was that, by offering the same treatment back -- rather than by positing an inclusive, uniting "third way" in which the virtues of good pop and good indie are appreciated -- you're basically "sinking to their level" = acknowledging that you have nothing more interesting to say (than what they're saying) = acknowledging that their behavior was completely legitimate, since you're engaging in it too.

that wasn't meant to sound as flip as it did.

(haha, contrary to this thread, i can actually produce coherent thoughts.)

hooks yes so are you saying that the hooks outweigh the "threat" which whitey is purported to feel when hearing real hiphop? because NBN's first meets each hook with some fairly legit underground styles even on OPP (which was popular let's face it because 1) the Jackson 5 rule the freaking WORLD and 2) everybody likes to think about the "p" word)

not to worry Jess this thread is far too much fun to take anything personally

except for that bit about my ace of base cover being my best work

kidding kidding

john you cant be down with opp and ice cube!!

thats like being a lo fi folk rocker who listens to nwa or something

click here.

For fairness' sake - so people on ILM can get an idea of what the "new" people on this thread usually talk about.

I get your point Phil - but that "third way" is what I've been trying to do with FT from the beginning, and of course nobody at all (comparatively) reads the non-indie articles, and people read the pro- indie articles but never reply, and the occasional jokey taste-of-own- medicine anti-indie piece gets a huge shitstorm of response. Even on ILM there is much much less anti-indie stuff than people seem to think, in my opinion.

tell that to the people at the BDP show when OPP came through the system

NB yes I know BDP are too "conscious" to count as black according to most anglo interpreters of hiphop roolz

Let me try that again

was that meant to be a link to bitchpork? i hate those fuckin guys

I posted that link because there's a lot of ILM bashing there and even behind-the-back personal bashing eg. toward Josh, when they could easily confront it/them directly, right here on ILM. I mean, that's what this very thread is, but a lot of festering and preparation went into it.

Christ my last post came off totally humorless and stiff

let's have another g + t shall we

No, it's the Fake Matador Bulletin Board, where they proclaim ILM's worthlessness while mostly serving as the usual "what I listened to today" "here's that band/concert info" indie board. The usual.

haha saddest online community ever!

(which is a bit like being the tallest midget, yes, but still...)

I like how they think they aren't insular and snide. Twisted view of reality, that. I have some first-hand experience with their childish backstabbing.

well at least they dont make fun of people for what music they listen to like SOME forums!!

haha, i like how either josh or i is listed as "dr. funk's favorite." i want that on my tombstone.

Today's pop is tomorrow's indie. The "bootlegging craze" = indie whether you like it or not.

so, should we make that final push then?

i mean, because i'm exhausted...

the fmbb link just made it all so sad now, theyve sucked the joy out of ilm with their well-planned assault

THE TERRORISTS HAVE ALREADY WON

I do like their layout. It's lots of fun clicking for one-liners.

and if i ever meet any of them it'll be a hard fuckin kick in the teeth for that anti-josh bullshit

Jim's "B-b-b-but everything's indie" argument is probably the most tenable I've come across because 'indie' is such a meaningless, know- it-when-you-see-it category. He hears bootlegging as indie, I don't, who's right? Who knows! It's like Jess' argument on some previous thread that all indie is basically pop anyway (Melissa called me on my doing similar swerves once and I wish she'd posted a thread). So why still use words like "indie" and "pop"? Because these big overarching macro-genres are still things that people recognise themselves in. I reckon.

ladies and gentlemen, 300 new posts in less than 12 hours. i'm going to bed.

Yeah, the Josh stuff is bullshit. You get this whole spiel about how on their bulletin board they'd never criticise somebody for their music taste, oh goodness no, they'd spend half a day turning a thread into a nasty personal attack instead.

NOTHING CAN STOP US NOW

Never pegged you as a Moby fan.

or maybe it was SAINT ETIENNE!!!!!

Jay Z and Other Throw downs look out.
Intense. Fucking Intense. Im just glad I dont know any of that other board or folks like it irl.

dammit this is funny:

Rx@C
Re: ILM is now password protected (JOSH: please read)
Wed May 29 22:18:43 2002
65.184.16.82

Ethan (the "funny guy" of ILM) threatened to kick all of your teeth in. I think he lives in LA (where I'm headed this weekend). I think he's in a new wave band (I think Oingo Boingo covers?), will have to check this out! If it doesn't work out, I could email him my address in case he comes up to SF.

btw his next post corrected his error but i still love the idea of ethan singing oingo boingo songs!

rather than by positing an inclusive, uniting "third way" in which the virtues of good pop and good indie are

Is this an 'indie' attitude rather than a 'pop' attitude? Let me explain...

I don't think of 'indie' or 'pop' as types of music, but as attitudes to music and listening to music. Listening to something because it's 'good' = indie; listening to something because you like it = pop; having to think about whether you like something or not, or what kind of music it is, etc. = definitely indie (ie the whole point of ILM). But because I'm not sure there is such a thing as a pure unmediated reaction to music (pure instinctive liking) that would mean that there is no 'true' pop fan (especially not the infamous critical model eg. 14 yr old girls): everyone is 'indie' to some extent.

Which certainly makes *me* indie, however much I like pop music, and the same probably goes for the rest of ILM, and anyone who can even be bothered to argue about this.

There's a separate issue about the insularity of particular scenes, which is I think a misleading way of thinking about the problem. Scenes or particular groups of fans do not exist as such -- they are posited, either as the subject of a proposition ('we true fans of X') or as its object ('those bastard fans of Y'), and thus are only constituted polemically: 'which side are you on boys?'

sincerity & irony = equal affectations. // And only indiekidz care about EITHER!

Sterling said this and it is my favourite piece of this thread so far!

anna rose is 13 alex

**that would mean that there is no 'true' pop fan**

Yes there is

1) Kids under 9.

2)The vast majority of the general non-music obsessed public who just hear stuff on the radio and buy <5 CDs a year. They'll instinctively like/dislike a record without knowing if they're supposed to like it or whether listening to it will be 'good for them'. Even if people have heard that a record is meant to be good (here : good = sells a lot) they feel under pressure to like it if they don't.

Doh! **they DON'T feel under pressure to like it if they don't**

Isn't part of the issue, though, the fact that indie is the most self- depreciating of the musical genres? In all other forms of music, the guy gets the girl at the end of the song. In indie, she goes off and shags one of the school football team instead. Indie kids mock themselves, which is a pretty unique trait amongst music fans (try leafing through an issue of Rock Sound or The Source or Jockey Slut, and finding people who can take a joke there), so while it looks like indie is denigrated, it's only because it's being denigrated by its very fans.

In all other forms of music, the guy gets the girl at the end of the song.

Not a big blues fan, then? ;) (Or soul for that matter)

Ah, in blues, the girl has already gone though. Yeah, that covers up that flaw in my arguement...

What about in metal? Doesn't the devil / plague / evil corporation get both of them?

Yeah, or Gollum and the Evil One?