What's the future of the music industry?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4pzR6lrHa8Y/TdkECRVioNI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/0DKR045rMZc/s1600/Olivier.jpg

(This, of course, provides that the artist writing the songs actually wants to create art, and not just construct something that will sell - which is why Gershwin was superior to Berlin and Paul McCartney and Brian Wilson are superior to Steinberg and Kelly.)

yeah, but he couldn't play the piano for toffee...

Basically, if a top soprano isn't a musician, and Irving isn't either, than who is? Only people who can play and compose?

That's a good point, Sarah. There's a hilarious artist space in Toronto that is often mistaken for an after-hours and you consistently see confused people looking for cheap booze trying to parse whatever performance art thing is going on. But what you call "local connections" is often just as simple as having some friends who'll come and see you play, you know?

speaking of which, there's this guy that comments on every article in the regional newspaper that's about my city, and is obsessed with the unfairness of parking enforcement. Geir reminds me of that guy.

Are we getting Geir'd right now?

Basically, if a top soprano isn't a musician, and Irving isn't either, than who is? Only people who can play and compose?

It is OK for me to say that, OK, a soprano is a musician. But only the composer can possibly be an artistic genius.

"only working class people can be racist"

But what you call "local connections" is often just as simple as having some friends who'll come and see you play, you know?

yeah, exactly -- or know a couple other local bands that have friends that will come see them play.

BLimey, Geir changed his mind there.

i shd stick at the jpeg but i just had a thought. all artists are influenced by others, many composers going so far as to incorporate folk tunes and other musics directly into their own work. so when Messaien orchestrates bird song, is he stealing off a bird who is the authentic artist there? or are Zeppelin mere Willy Dixon plagiarists? is there ultimately like only one artist right back at the beginning of human culture and everybody else is a crappy professional photocopying their cast-offs?

and now back to staring into the abyss, folks

Well, I was going to say:

If VVanGogh paints sunflowers, who is the artistic genius, him, or the guy that grew the sunflowers? (or, indeed, God?)

(or, indeed, God Richard Dawkins?)

XXX-Post. There is a difference between influence and just copying. Influence is good and healthy, as long as you use that influence from others to create a composition that, note-for-note, is entirely your own.

but i can guarantee that almost all composers are using notes previously used by other composers

I'm done with the current argument.

Back to the future of the music industry, yeah?

No no, this is a brand new e-flat xp

you stole my chord!

What's the past of the music industry?

anyone heard that new Travis LP 'Songs In The Key Of H'?

xp

shameless plagiarism and inauthenticity. also Geir thinks Schoenberg is a major artist.

But what you call "local connections" is often just as simple as having some friends who'll come and see you play, you know?

yeah, exactly -- or know a couple other local bands that have friends that will come see them play.

It's weird, I've become so used to the UK system that I've completely forgotten how the North American system works, with bands dealing directly with venues.

Like, in the UK, there's this middle layer of local promoters who fill that gap. That if you work with a really good promoter, they work to put you on a bill with local bands who have a similar fanbase as you, and promote the night, contact local press, etc. and get people down, so you don't have to have "local connections" just connections with good promoters.

(That said, really good promoters like that can be quite rare, there are far too many who do precisely nothing and expect to take the lion's share of the door just for making the phone calls to the band and the venue - but then they're getting shafted by the person who owns or manages the venue themselves, and in the end, no one actually gets paid but the soundperson.)

also Geir thinks Schoenberg is a major artist.

I would say the ultimate artistic achievement is to achieve artistic acclaim and mass popularity in the same breath. Schönberg, unlike Mozart and Handel and many others, never quite achieved the latter.....

xp - the soundperson, the alcohol vendors, and the landlord.

i dunno, Les Mis is pretty popular dude

Yeah, Sarahel, that's pretty much the order they get paid in.

-soundperson
-brewery
-bar staff
-promoter
-maybe the bands get some £ from the leftovers when everything else is divvied up

And then the punters start calling the *band* arrogant for actually asking for a guarantee.

i dunno, Les Mis is pretty popular dude

Not quite up there with "The Four Seasons" or "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" or the "Hallelujah" chorus....

I am willing to bet that The Messiah could not sell out Broadway and West End theatres for years at a stretch

And nobody's made the final of Britain's Got Talent playing some of Vivaldi's so-called serial music

Schoenberg is pretty awesome.

I couldn't hum the "popular" part of The Four Seasons tbh. it's never stuck with me.

xp

yeah Miss Saigon is a good one too

Noodle Vague, I was actually enjoying this thread until you decided to turn it into a spot of Geir-baiting.

I don't blame Geir for these derailments, I blame the half dozen posters who SHOULD KNOW BETTER who seem incapable of not jumping on a pile-on and turning a good, thoughtful thread into a clusterfuck. So thanks for spoiling it, NV.

But what you call "local connections" is often just as simple as having some friends who'll come and see you play, you know?

yeah, exactly -- or know a couple other local bands that have friends that will come see them play.

It's weird, I've become so used to the UK system that I've completely forgotten how the North American system works, with bands dealing directly with venues.

Like, in the UK, there's this middle layer of local promoters who fill that gap. That if you work with a really good promoter, they work to put you on a bill with local bands who have a similar fanbase as you, and promote the night, contact local press, etc. and get people down, so you don't have to have "local connections" just connections with good promoters.

(That said, really good promoters like that can be quite rare, there are far too many who do precisely nothing and expect to take the lion's share of the door just for making the phone calls to the band and the venue - but then they're getting shafted by the person who owns or manages the venue themselves, and in the end, no one actually gets paid but the soundperson.)

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, May 27, 2011 11:17 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lord i can't even imagine having "promoters" in a local club situation, uggg, so little money to go around as is...thank u black flag

I am willing to bet that The Messiah could not sell out Broadway and West End theatres for years at a stretch

In the 18th century, maybe.....

Only the most popular albums sell 50.000 here, but in the US or Canadian market, even rather underground acts should be able to shift 50.000 copies.

No, see, that's the problem. A relatively underground band could have sold 50,000 units in the '90s, but not anymore.

Mad kudos to Karen for dutifully keeping a sensible conversation going throughout this mentalism.

(hah, xposts)

here there's a mix of both -- independent promoters and venues that do all their own booking. Though a lot of the promoters don't take much of a cut, just cover costs of posters/flyers -- take 10% of the show's receipts, tops.

Karen I apologise but most people seem to be able to carry on their own conversations and ignore me pratting around. I will now go and start a "Wilfully Confusing Schoenbergs Because It's Friday Afternoon and You're a Git" thread tho.

and by "you're" i meant "i'm" btw

I mean, earlier this year Cake's album debuted with 44,000 sales, and it was the number one record that week!

xpost to myself re: 50k sales

cake is caked up

For this whole discussion of touring and promoters and the way that bands make money off playing live, I really really wish that emsk still posted to ILX. (I mean, you get cases where there are four layers of people trying to make money off one gig - the band, the venue, the promoter and the booking agent - however, having an actual booking agent vastly increases a band's chances of getting a Guarantee, because booking agents don't just control access to Little Indie Band, they control whether the same promoter gets access to Big Wildly Successful Touring Act as well so they have to keep their relationships good)

however, having an actual booking agent vastly increases a band's chances of getting a Guarantee, because booking agents don't just control access to Little Indie Band, they control whether the same promoter gets access to Big Wildly Successful Touring Act as well so they have to keep their relationships good)

Yeah, exactly -- and as a venue booker or indie promoter, you sometimes end up having to take on some acts that you really don't want to in order to keep up relationships w/the booking agent.

Like the music, itself, is often one of the last things on your mind after money, maintaining relationships, and doing favors for the right people

I don't think it's so much "have to take on acts you don't really want" (that's usually more to do with support bands) so much as "if you ask to book a band, you have to pay them a guarantee, and if you can't guarantee the money, you have not proved yourself a good enough promoter to make it worth the band coming out."

Trust me, I'm sympathetic to promoters to a certain point, in that it is one of those jobs where you truly have to balance love of music and the blunt realities of money. But the idea that you can ask a band to drive, with all of their gear, from, say, London to Nottingham, and expect to have them play to 3 of your mates and pay them in drink tickets, that's kind of bullshit.

I mean, sure, the whole money, maintaining relationships and doing favours thing exists, and it sucks, and it exists on every level of the music industry. But this is not *necessarily* that.

it's both. like from the point of view of a booker/promoter, you want to be the go-to person and get first dibs. If you say "no" too often, the agent develops stronger relationships with other promoters and bookers

i'm surprised nobody's linked this article yet.

http://www.littlewhiteearbuds.com/feature/everything-popular-is-wrong-making-it-in-electronic-music-despite-democratization/

it did the rounds a couple of months ago. it starts with a very familiar story but ends up in a pretty surprising place. go read it.

in my experience when we're talking about touring in the US vs touring in the UK we are talking, in every sphere - promoter, clubowner, booker, etc - about two almost completely different things.