ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

"i've listened to songs about people singing crack and beating women and shooting people on the way in to work today. "

Man, that's a rough commute.

radio disney getting real out there

That Awl piece is really good.

also, i don't appreciate the contrived conflation of tyler's stage persona/EXPLICIT LYRICS with the actions of a crowd of assholes chanting slut slut slut

lol @ you reaching so far that drawing a connection a guy doing something onstage and a crowd's reaction is a "contrived conflation" - are you serious? you cannot be serious.

isn't it

like it actually approaches the is-this-noxious question from the angle of what behaviours it promotes in the real world, and in how people are actually relating to it, and then how that feeds back into what tyler is doing and embodying as part of odd future, rather than treating it as if every time he said a bad word it was in a vacuum

which is kind of nice i think, that someone wrote a piece that did that

.. xpost

I mean I know your next move is "what if somebody sings about murder, is he responsible for" etc yawn etc but you are actually arguing that it's weird or naive to connect the guy with the misogynist lyrics & the misogynist reaction of the crowd to presentation of said lyrics - it's not - it is quite obviously correct to do so

OTM

Sorry forks but I really don't think that's much of a stretch.

Something Aerosmith said yesterday really rings true for me and the way I'm reacting to this and, yes, I did read some more lyrics.

I'm fully capable of processing shocking art. and I think I have a finely enough tuned ear to not be just engaging some grandpa urge when I hear something that feels like it's not coming from an interest-in-exploring-tropes place but a reject-and-resist-this-because-this-is-genuinely-sympathetic-to-rape place.

It's the way the lyrics are written and the level of violence and particular imagery used that makes this seem a hell of a lot worse than anything I can remember hearing recently. What Reddening said about this potentially being some pretty triggery shit for a lot of people is totally right and while I'm not going to have a breakdown over it or anything I also wouldn't choose to listen to it and do find it pretty disturbing that it's quite so popular. I mean you could arguing correctly that it's pretty disturbing that a lot of things are so popular but somehow this just *feels* different.

The Awl piece certainly left me thinking that if I saw OF at a gig like that with fans like that then I might think "fuck these guys" after all.

Reminds me (a bit) of Merle Haggard claiming Okie From Muskogee was ironic and then releasing a live version with an entirely unironic reaction from the audience - "Sing it!" I don't swallow the irony defence anyway but even if Tyler was being ironic a crowd response like this should be enough to tell him that the joke's being taken seriously.

Anyway, what does Derrin Zikks think of OF?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxZ4tsp8gc

x-post errr . . . argue not arguing

I should do some more digging into this but the impression I'm getting around the discourse is that the material is more misogynistic/homophobic than Insane Clown Posse, which is kind of amazing in and of itself (also, the whole "wicked Klown" pose IMO defuses a good amount of ICP's venom by pushing all of their shit through the wholly ridiculous premise that all of it is being said by murderous clowns annointed by God).

it also helps defuse the chance of ICP geting as much press love as they get clown love

lol I was thinking of this in relation to ICP earlier today but I haven't figured anything out yet. That said . . . I am totally fascinated by the whole Juggalo thing but am not an actual fan so I'd have to do so research too but somehow, at least on the surface, it does seem a lot more misogynistic. I think that's in part because as awful and misogynistic as Juggalo culture can be (we've all seen the gathering footage) there is also a sense of community and protection/loyalty surrounding Juggalettes that somehow seems to balance it out a bit? I fully admit that I'm sort of talking out of my ass a little here so correct me if I'm wrong because iirc you actually own some ICP stuff but that's sort of the sense I've always gotten and I don't really see that being an element here.

was x-post

but yeah the divinely appointed murderous clown personas help a bit too

Granted, I've only ever heard two full-length ICP albums in my life (thank god), but they were a lot more misogynistic than OF. I don't recall many graphic descriptions of chopping "bitches" heads off with axes on the OF stuff I've heard. Not defending, but I think ICP is way worse.

Yeah. I don't know. That sort of horrorcore crap just seems so fucking ridiculous and ott whereas the stuff OF as rapping about is stuff that's way more prevalent and happens every single day to thousands of people. I think for me that's what makes it seem worse and more potentially harmful.

well also ICP are so hamfisted that there's not a lot of people going "check out the genius of these misogynistic lyrics" and bending over backwards to assert narrative distance between the authors & their subjects

also, wicked clown

Oh, I totally see what you mean about the OF stuff seeming more "real" or whatever, I'm just saying the misogyny I've heard on ICP crap is off the charts.

(aero & enbb both otm, I was just sayin')

i don't appreciate the contrived conflation of violent j's stage persona/EXPLICIT LYRICS with the actions of a crowd of assholes chanting neden neden neden

But, y'know, lets also not pretend like everyone into ICP is "smart" enough to realize the OTTness in the lyrics. Visiting my wife's family in some rural areas of MI has meant hearing a lot of horrifying shit come out of the mouths of clown-faced, hatchet man sporting teenagers.

Again, not framing this as dismissive of Tyler and Odd Future, but I think its a little disingenuous to pretend that ICP's stuff isn't dangerous because its "hamfisted" or "over the top".

"dismissive" should be "defensive"

lol, I would actually argue that calling ICP misogynistic doesn't accurately capture the level of violence in their music; they want to chop the heads off of EVERYONE, sometimes including themselves.

Actually the only songs coming to mind right now that specifically FEATURE violence towards women are "The Stalker" (self-explanatory, also super creepy, also ends with the target knocking out the stalker's eye and the target's father catching the stalker and scaring him off with a gun to the head), "The Loons" (another stalker song, the stalker never actually makes it to the target because this time he gets shot by the dad) and "Amy's In The Attic" (two kids are playing on a playground, one gets pushed off the slide and breaks her neck and the other freaks out and hides her body in the attic, slowly going crazy over the course of several years); I am sure there are others I'm forgetting. They're all mini horror movies condensed into songs, not by any means enlightened or positive in their treatment of women, but possibly easier to not take all that seriously (because, again, these are all parables being told by Christian clowns attempting to save your soul).

I don't think they've ever actually done anything that endorsed or featured rape, though. Most if not all of the women in their songs who are mentioned as potential sexual partners are either willing participants or unattainable/stalking targets that they never actually get their hands on.

(I don't think they've ever done anything that had a particularly sensible or enlightened view of women, either)

(let me say "enlightened" a few more times)

http://lyrics.wikia.com/Insane_Clown_Posse:Another_Love_Song

lol okay "I Stuck Her With My Wang" features violence against women in a wholly uncharming, "but she wanted it" way

ew

oh yeah that song

which btw sucks and also is violent but, to my point, not about rape

this thread moves too fast for me to even continue one argument!
i'll pick this one for the moment

hey forks if you had finished reading that sentence and caught the "without doing the 'hey LOTS of art is toxic' weave" you could have just said "no, i can't justify the brutality and cruelty of the system but i like how it tastes."

I p much totally agree with aerosmith, and yet I get the nagging feeling that he's going to install V-chips in all our TVs

xpost after letting everyone know you enjoyed cop killer and gangsta gangsta as a kid, as if that has ANYTHING to do with whether you'll enjoy Odd Future

I hated "Cop Killer", not because of the violent message but because I thought the music sucked

Again, not framing this as dismissive of Tyler and Odd Future, but I think its a little disingenuous to pretend that ICP's stuff isn't dangerous because its "hamfisted" or "over the top".

Yeah, I didn't mean to defend them necessarily - I even said I don't know/haven't thought it through enough but just that I made the connection earlier this morning. Just saying that at least initially and on the surface it seems a lot less real (for several of the reasons already mentioned) and easier for me to digest (read: laugh at).

forgiving ICP seems kinda odd in this context what with the whole Tila Teqila thing

xp

lol @ you reaching so far that drawing a connection a guy doing something onstage and a crowd's reaction is a "contrived conflation"

nothing bad ever happens at metal shows

after letting everyone know you enjoyed cop killer and gangsta gangsta as a kid, as if that has ANYTHING to do with whether you'll enjoy Odd Future

and in retrospect "cop killer" is probably unlistenable, yes.
i should go try it again.

btw, thanks for

I mean I know your next move is

can you not actually read, Shakey

what I wrote: Given the focus people are placing on the rapeyness of OF lyrics, I have the impression they are more misogynistic than ICP, which is amazing/staggering

what you read: ICP isn't that misogynistic, they never talked about raping someone

A comment from that Awl article:

I have been listening to OF in my room and laughing hysterically at their rape songs. Which is crazy, because I was raped!

and in retrospect "cop killer" is probably unlistenable, yes. i should go try it again.

I just wrote about Body Count on Monday. They're better than you remember.

did you think i was bragging?

I thought you were responding to "why do enthusiasts give OF a pass" with the usual tangent of "there is a long history of people saying bad things that I've let pass" that I had specifically called out as being sad in the sentence you were responding to. Just because you like one group that says toxic shit doesn't mean you will or have to LIKE another.

x-post

:I

It's the way the lyrics are written and the level of violence and particular imagery used that makes this seem a hell of a lot worse than anything I can remember hearing recently.

Or what you have or haven't experienced as far as the subject matter is concerned.

Just because you like one group that says toxic shit doesn't mean you will or have to LIKE another.

forks I'm sorry if your this-shit-was-over-ten-years-ago postmodern reading of the narrative voice is predictable, but it is ridiculously predictable. that "no connection between art and the real world" style of reading only survives in discussions like these, elsewhere it's rightly thought of as a little embarrassing, and its motions aren't exactly hard to predict. it is a reading strategy that absolves the reader of assigning weight to texts, and its hour passed quite some time ago.

E, maybe? but I'm not willing to buy into "if I had worked at a domestic abuse shelter i would feel differently" but for a host of reasons that i'm absolutely not going to get into here that go a bit further than "some of my best friends were abuse victims" i don't think it's a matter of my lack of exposure to people who have had to live the harsh reality of the outcomes of this sort of thinking.

um, I think E meant "if you had been abused you might feel differently"

probably should be emphasis on "might"

aero, my point was that what you assumed was my point wasn't my point? not that you aren't a bright guy and everything but presuming you know where i'm going before i say it means there's no point in talking at all.