ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

also I think tons of OF enthusiasts (both on this board and off) have been "defending tyler on first amendment grounds" bcuz the conversation has been driven by a moral backlash against his rise in popularity. it's very rarely been a musical debate & it's also not an album where it seems like ppls opinions can be changed

if you're a writer that takes part in the Top 10 Shit Everyone Should Be Listening To world

imo this is key - i realise that not everyone has to have this perspective, but for anyone who's a critic or working in the industry, it's not just about whether to enjoy this, it's about promoting and disseminating it too - long ago i basically reconciled my enjoyment of dancehall by homophobic artists by saying i'd never support those artists with promotion or £££.

not saying any kind of line like that is necessary at all - like i've stated repeatedly, i like plenty of music with dodgy content - but what's irked most is the apparent lack of self-awareness & self-questioning before proceeding full steam ahead with the "OMG FUTURE OF MUSIC" slobbering (that oddly hasn't accrued to many other hip-hop acts?)

if i do pazz&jop this year goblin won't be on my list. i like it, but i don't think its great. it is too long and meandering. but i do like the sound. thats why i liked this stuff in the first place. plus, i think i was just surprised that i did like it cuz i hate most indie/undie/internet shit.

i don't really get worked up about OF lyrics tbh. they're offensive if i overthink it, but i dissociate—same as i do when ghostface or quik (or any of a million of other rappers) drops a "faggot" into their verses here and there. my reaction to Goblin/Bastard lyrics isn't so much "wow holy shit that's offensive," more just a resigned thought, "wow he's immature." not offended by the content so much as the teenager-ness of it all. which is not really what i come to hip hop looking for. same as eminem, who i've never taken kindly to... but he never offended me or got me up in arms, i just thought he needed to grow up. my mind throws the homophobia and rape and murder into the same bucket as scatological jokes—it's all just really immature. young people say stupid shit, and that's not a good selling point for me—offensive or not.

btw, all the critics and fans who've heard Goblin (ehhhh... average?) but not Raekwon's UTTERLY FANTASTIC NEW ALBUM, get on that shit immediately.

he's not that young ffs

why is it so hard to praise the bits you like about OF and condemn the rest. why are people struggling to defend it? it's not that complicated!!!!!

If the crap you're getting for liking abusive shit is making you feel bad or enjoy your abusive shit less, boo fucking hoo. Sorry someone made you think harder.

Nothing on this thread has made me like OF less. Edward's compilation way way upthread was a great introduction and the last couple of months of finding and listening to all the OF related stuff has been really great. People who object to it or don't think it's any good etc have their reasons and I for one don't think they should just get over it but at the same time it doesn't have any effect on how I continue to enjoy the music. Goblin's grown on me a hell of a lot, tho' still behind Dena Tapes, Earl, and Rolling Papers.

they're offensive if i overthink it, but i dissociate

i really don't want to repeat myself any more, but it is amazing to see a happy young indie guy say "oh yeah its offensive if I think about it, so i don't" just a minute later

with an extra slice of "oh if I didn't enjoy this I couldn't enjoy ANY rap" as well

xpost Goblin is easier to discuss because it's not that good and the best tracks are generally the ones least encumbered by the bitch/rape/faggot stuff. Earl's album is the one which forces me to examine my responses because the brilliant and repellent aspects are completely inseparable.

xpost Re: age as an excuse, it's weird to think that Tyler made Goblin at the same age as Rakim made Paid in Full.

i blame society. lax moral standards & the general sense that things are falling apart have put the burden on "bad boy" rock stars to wallow in reprehensible, soul-destroying shit to remain recognizable as "bad boys." Tyler's the victim DO YOU SEE????

i blame the former governor of california.

(...man the Stones had it so easy...)

xp lol @ skot

i blame jodie foster for putting mel gibson movies out.

Goblin is easier to discuss because it's not that good

yeah i think the "backlashers" (h8 that term but ygm) have had an easier time of it because as far as i can see even the most fervent OF fans are like, yeah, goblin's too long and plodding.

you should shoot a former governor of california to send jodie a message

u know what i'm pretty happy that tyler is now an A-list hipsterunoff celebrity

normally whenever carles writes abt rappers it's just offensive but tyler deserves all he gets

long ago i basically reconciled my enjoyment of dancehall by homophobic artists by saying i'd never support those artists with promotion or £££.

i've been thinking about this approach and something jordan said upthread about personal expiration dates--i dug bastard when i dl'ed it and all the stuff they had released to that point and i guess i could look past some of the real offensive shit because while the albums were coherent and good, there was still a feeling that they were coming from a place of a bunch of teenagers fucking around, giving stuff away online, and just kind of seeing where it went. and i think one of the reasons i'm so unpsyched about goblin is because tyler has commoditized that real offensive shit and it's part of a package you now have to buy into.

you should shoot a former governor of california to send jodie a message

^deleted line from "Yonkers"

now playing!

http://waxinandmilkin.com/photo/1280/164361545/1/tumblr_kohmb8EVkk1qz7l0a

i really don't want to repeat myself any more, but it is amazing to see a happy young indie guy say "oh yeah its offensive if I think about it, so i don't" just a minute later

― da croupier, Friday, May 20, 2011 9:35 AM (10 minutes ago)

lol @ me being a "happy young indie guy"

to clarify (i thought this was clear in my post btw): my gag reflex kicks in immediately because T's lyrics are immature—juvenile, young/reckless, whatever you want to call it. as a result, i'm not prompted to really dig deeply into the lyrics.

maybe i shouldn't have said "dissociate" because i'm not playing Goblin on repeat over and over, and having to dissociate to enjoy it. if i loved the album, i'd prolly have to dissociate to keep enjoying it, but i never got to that point, really. the immaturity of it all (which is apparent above all to me) got to me first.

at the thrift store yesterday i got great CDs. monie, m.c. brains loverslane album and two emperor CDs. oh and a jackie-o motherfucker cd.

curse you all men

ah see when you open a post with "i don't really get worked up about OF lyrics tbh" I don't assume they make you gag

xpost

my engagement with the music (~3 spins of Goblin, one of Bastard, random other Earl/Frank/etc. trax on youtube) isn't deep or committed enough to even want to get into the "offensive" debate. yes it's offensive, but it also strikes me as immature above all else, which is what puts me off.

can i just point out i really like that awl piece i linked

http://www.theawl.com/2011/05/with-the-ladies-in-the-back-at-an-odd-future-show

"It'd be cool if OF enthusiasts could cop to letting some noxious shit pass and describe their personal reason for doing so"
i let noxious lyrical content and horrible mind wrenching musicianship (or lack of) pass on roughly 65% of what I listen to. I don't think there's ever been a time that i haven't? I was listening to cop killer and gangsta gangsta back in my teens and i've listened to songs about people singing crack and beating women and shooting people on the way in to work today. these are not actions i espouse and the art that is inherent in this music is entirely divisible.
also, i don't appreciate the contrived conflation of tyler's stage persona/EXPLICIT LYRICS with the actions of a crowd of assholes chanting slut slut slut; i'm not trying to defend the message or the fans, i'm saying i can like the music without buying into the value system/dipshittery. this is not a great leap for me.
my "personal reason for doing so" is probably close to the reasons I still eat meat: no, i can't justify the brutality and cruelty of the system but i like how it tastes.

would you liken Goblin to filet mignon, flank steak, rump roast, ground beef, or non-edible trimmings?

hey forks if you had finished reading that sentence and caught the "without doing the 'hey LOTS of art is toxic' weave" you could have just said "no, i can't justify the brutality and cruelty of the system but i like how it tastes."

"i've listened to songs about people singing crack and beating women and shooting people on the way in to work today. "

Man, that's a rough commute.

radio disney getting real out there

That Awl piece is really good.

also, i don't appreciate the contrived conflation of tyler's stage persona/EXPLICIT LYRICS with the actions of a crowd of assholes chanting slut slut slut

lol @ you reaching so far that drawing a connection a guy doing something onstage and a crowd's reaction is a "contrived conflation" - are you serious? you cannot be serious.

isn't it

like it actually approaches the is-this-noxious question from the angle of what behaviours it promotes in the real world, and in how people are actually relating to it, and then how that feeds back into what tyler is doing and embodying as part of odd future, rather than treating it as if every time he said a bad word it was in a vacuum

which is kind of nice i think, that someone wrote a piece that did that

.. xpost

I mean I know your next move is "what if somebody sings about murder, is he responsible for" etc yawn etc but you are actually arguing that it's weird or naive to connect the guy with the misogynist lyrics & the misogynist reaction of the crowd to presentation of said lyrics - it's not - it is quite obviously correct to do so

OTM

Sorry forks but I really don't think that's much of a stretch.

Something Aerosmith said yesterday really rings true for me and the way I'm reacting to this and, yes, I did read some more lyrics.

I'm fully capable of processing shocking art. and I think I have a finely enough tuned ear to not be just engaging some grandpa urge when I hear something that feels like it's not coming from an interest-in-exploring-tropes place but a reject-and-resist-this-because-this-is-genuinely-sympathetic-to-rape place.

It's the way the lyrics are written and the level of violence and particular imagery used that makes this seem a hell of a lot worse than anything I can remember hearing recently. What Reddening said about this potentially being some pretty triggery shit for a lot of people is totally right and while I'm not going to have a breakdown over it or anything I also wouldn't choose to listen to it and do find it pretty disturbing that it's quite so popular. I mean you could arguing correctly that it's pretty disturbing that a lot of things are so popular but somehow this just *feels* different.

The Awl piece certainly left me thinking that if I saw OF at a gig like that with fans like that then I might think "fuck these guys" after all.

Reminds me (a bit) of Merle Haggard claiming Okie From Muskogee was ironic and then releasing a live version with an entirely unironic reaction from the audience - "Sing it!" I don't swallow the irony defence anyway but even if Tyler was being ironic a crowd response like this should be enough to tell him that the joke's being taken seriously.

Anyway, what does Derrin Zikks think of OF?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxZ4tsp8gc

x-post errr . . . argue not arguing

I should do some more digging into this but the impression I'm getting around the discourse is that the material is more misogynistic/homophobic than Insane Clown Posse, which is kind of amazing in and of itself (also, the whole "wicked Klown" pose IMO defuses a good amount of ICP's venom by pushing all of their shit through the wholly ridiculous premise that all of it is being said by murderous clowns annointed by God).

it also helps defuse the chance of ICP geting as much press love as they get clown love

lol I was thinking of this in relation to ICP earlier today but I haven't figured anything out yet. That said . . . I am totally fascinated by the whole Juggalo thing but am not an actual fan so I'd have to do so research too but somehow, at least on the surface, it does seem a lot more misogynistic. I think that's in part because as awful and misogynistic as Juggalo culture can be (we've all seen the gathering footage) there is also a sense of community and protection/loyalty surrounding Juggalettes that somehow seems to balance it out a bit? I fully admit that I'm sort of talking out of my ass a little here so correct me if I'm wrong because iirc you actually own some ICP stuff but that's sort of the sense I've always gotten and I don't really see that being an element here.

was x-post

but yeah the divinely appointed murderous clown personas help a bit too

Granted, I've only ever heard two full-length ICP albums in my life (thank god), but they were a lot more misogynistic than OF. I don't recall many graphic descriptions of chopping "bitches" heads off with axes on the OF stuff I've heard. Not defending, but I think ICP is way worse.

Yeah. I don't know. That sort of horrorcore crap just seems so fucking ridiculous and ott whereas the stuff OF as rapping about is stuff that's way more prevalent and happens every single day to thousands of people. I think for me that's what makes it seem worse and more potentially harmful.

well also ICP are so hamfisted that there's not a lot of people going "check out the genius of these misogynistic lyrics" and bending over backwards to assert narrative distance between the authors & their subjects

also, wicked clown