ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

Ayo croup, you know you can break threads into 50-post chunks by pressing "permalink" on the last post before the fold, right? Useful shit imo.

Thanks for this.

my point was that tyler is not quite as powerful/influential outside of a tiny stripe of world we happen to allow in and that we're overstating his fanbase/appeal/impact
also that we should talk more about kpop on this thread

Love the Tiger Beatdown thread. Not only is Sady Doyle's piece brilliantly written but the comments are smart and diverse too. I like the honesty of this response:

Here is my issue: I can’t bring myself to really disagree with any parts of this post but…I still like them. The lyrics, the behavior, all of it is problematic. Beyond that…it is bad. But what now? What do we do with Tyler and with Odd Future? What are we asking for? For these hip young white indie music bloggers to say that this shit is fucked up? I don’t think you’d be hard pressed to get people to admit that. Your problem seems to be that they won’t outright condemn all artistic production that comes from Odd Future and discard all praise. What is your prescription for moving forward? I’m a mid 20s woman of color in college studying feminist theory. I am, in fact, one of these people with their “asses on the line.” I grew up on Eminem. I like Odd Future. I don’t know. I can’t bring myself to defend them but I also like them!

I keep thinking of Chris Rock's line: "I love hip hop but I'm tired of defending it."

It'd be cool if OF enthusiasts could cop to letting some noxious shit pass and describe their personal reason for doing so (again, people allegedly ENJOY this group), rather than doing the "hey LOTS of art is toxic" weave or the "hey 1st amendment, what are you tipper gore" dodge. Those are just ways to get out of feeling like a douche for publicly praising douchey shit. Yeah, everybody listens to and enjoys stuff that would make other people uncomfortable, but if you're a writer that takes part in the Top 10 Shit Everyone Should Be Listening To world, consider perspectives outside your own before raving, or learn how to write something subjective and self-examining without pulling some defensive "how dare you tell me I'm a bad person for promoting bad things" crap. A subculture used to letting this shit slide (or, dare I say, getting off on the vicarious brutality) got excited enough about a new act that people who weren't caught wind of it and said "woah, you're letting some gross shit slide." Responding with "what d'ya want, for us to call the cops?" or "pssh, read a history book, the world's been doing this since forever" is just sad and lame. If the crap you're getting for liking abusive shit is making you feel bad or enjoy your abusive shit less, boo fucking hoo. Sorry someone made you think harder.

Truth bombz

yep otm

has this been linked already?

http://www.theawl.com/2011/05/with-the-ladies-in-the-back-at-an-odd-future-show

ill take a stab at it! alright one of the things that first attracted be to OF besides what I found to be generally good rapping were songs like "epar" which has noxious subject matter but was a clinic in storytelling or joints like "assmilk" or the one in the checkout line from domo's album which were genuinely funny and infectiously fun. in a few ways, Tyler's music is markedly different (certainly in mood) from the rest of OF and I still think guys like Mike G & hodgy retain a lot of the elements that made me "actually enjoy" OF in the first place.

goddamn this thread moves fast, lots of debate. i dont want to get heavily involved here (got clowned last time i spoke up) but a couple things: (1) i've played the album 3-4 times, pretty much think "yonkers" and "sandwitches" are the two big keepers from the record. which means i can just dial up the youtubes here and there, probably dont need the whole album—lots of filler. (2) regarding all the controversy on whether Goblin (and OF) have any merit in general, Tyler tweeted this the other day and it kinda describes his aesthetic better than anyone else has managed to do. whether that's something that you find "interesting" is up to you i guess. me, i'll take "yonkers" (great video too!) and leave the rest. didn't like Bastard either tbh.

fucktyler Tyler, The Creator
Fuck Like 50k People Paid Money To Listen To Me Bitch About Life And Talk About Immature Shit Over Repetitive Beats....This Is Fucking Crazy
18 May

tyler is a smart, creative guy who has and can go on to make some really great music. but he is also an obnoxious twat and the more people that tell him this the better imo.

also I think tons of OF enthusiasts (both on this board and off) have been "defending tyler on first amendment grounds" bcuz the conversation has been driven by a moral backlash against his rise in popularity. it's very rarely been a musical debate & it's also not an album where it seems like ppls opinions can be changed

if you're a writer that takes part in the Top 10 Shit Everyone Should Be Listening To world

imo this is key - i realise that not everyone has to have this perspective, but for anyone who's a critic or working in the industry, it's not just about whether to enjoy this, it's about promoting and disseminating it too - long ago i basically reconciled my enjoyment of dancehall by homophobic artists by saying i'd never support those artists with promotion or £££.

not saying any kind of line like that is necessary at all - like i've stated repeatedly, i like plenty of music with dodgy content - but what's irked most is the apparent lack of self-awareness & self-questioning before proceeding full steam ahead with the "OMG FUTURE OF MUSIC" slobbering (that oddly hasn't accrued to many other hip-hop acts?)

if i do pazz&jop this year goblin won't be on my list. i like it, but i don't think its great. it is too long and meandering. but i do like the sound. thats why i liked this stuff in the first place. plus, i think i was just surprised that i did like it cuz i hate most indie/undie/internet shit.

i don't really get worked up about OF lyrics tbh. they're offensive if i overthink it, but i dissociate—same as i do when ghostface or quik (or any of a million of other rappers) drops a "faggot" into their verses here and there. my reaction to Goblin/Bastard lyrics isn't so much "wow holy shit that's offensive," more just a resigned thought, "wow he's immature." not offended by the content so much as the teenager-ness of it all. which is not really what i come to hip hop looking for. same as eminem, who i've never taken kindly to... but he never offended me or got me up in arms, i just thought he needed to grow up. my mind throws the homophobia and rape and murder into the same bucket as scatological jokes—it's all just really immature. young people say stupid shit, and that's not a good selling point for me—offensive or not.

btw, all the critics and fans who've heard Goblin (ehhhh... average?) but not Raekwon's UTTERLY FANTASTIC NEW ALBUM, get on that shit immediately.

he's not that young ffs

why is it so hard to praise the bits you like about OF and condemn the rest. why are people struggling to defend it? it's not that complicated!!!!!

If the crap you're getting for liking abusive shit is making you feel bad or enjoy your abusive shit less, boo fucking hoo. Sorry someone made you think harder.

Nothing on this thread has made me like OF less. Edward's compilation way way upthread was a great introduction and the last couple of months of finding and listening to all the OF related stuff has been really great. People who object to it or don't think it's any good etc have their reasons and I for one don't think they should just get over it but at the same time it doesn't have any effect on how I continue to enjoy the music. Goblin's grown on me a hell of a lot, tho' still behind Dena Tapes, Earl, and Rolling Papers.

they're offensive if i overthink it, but i dissociate

i really don't want to repeat myself any more, but it is amazing to see a happy young indie guy say "oh yeah its offensive if I think about it, so i don't" just a minute later

with an extra slice of "oh if I didn't enjoy this I couldn't enjoy ANY rap" as well

xpost Goblin is easier to discuss because it's not that good and the best tracks are generally the ones least encumbered by the bitch/rape/faggot stuff. Earl's album is the one which forces me to examine my responses because the brilliant and repellent aspects are completely inseparable.

xpost Re: age as an excuse, it's weird to think that Tyler made Goblin at the same age as Rakim made Paid in Full.

i blame society. lax moral standards & the general sense that things are falling apart have put the burden on "bad boy" rock stars to wallow in reprehensible, soul-destroying shit to remain recognizable as "bad boys." Tyler's the victim DO YOU SEE????

i blame the former governor of california.

(...man the Stones had it so easy...)

xp lol @ skot

i blame jodie foster for putting mel gibson movies out.

Goblin is easier to discuss because it's not that good

yeah i think the "backlashers" (h8 that term but ygm) have had an easier time of it because as far as i can see even the most fervent OF fans are like, yeah, goblin's too long and plodding.

you should shoot a former governor of california to send jodie a message

u know what i'm pretty happy that tyler is now an A-list hipsterunoff celebrity

normally whenever carles writes abt rappers it's just offensive but tyler deserves all he gets

long ago i basically reconciled my enjoyment of dancehall by homophobic artists by saying i'd never support those artists with promotion or £££.

i've been thinking about this approach and something jordan said upthread about personal expiration dates--i dug bastard when i dl'ed it and all the stuff they had released to that point and i guess i could look past some of the real offensive shit because while the albums were coherent and good, there was still a feeling that they were coming from a place of a bunch of teenagers fucking around, giving stuff away online, and just kind of seeing where it went. and i think one of the reasons i'm so unpsyched about goblin is because tyler has commoditized that real offensive shit and it's part of a package you now have to buy into.

you should shoot a former governor of california to send jodie a message

^deleted line from "Yonkers"

now playing!

http://waxinandmilkin.com/photo/1280/164361545/1/tumblr_kohmb8EVkk1qz7l0a

i really don't want to repeat myself any more, but it is amazing to see a happy young indie guy say "oh yeah its offensive if I think about it, so i don't" just a minute later

― da croupier, Friday, May 20, 2011 9:35 AM (10 minutes ago)

lol @ me being a "happy young indie guy"

to clarify (i thought this was clear in my post btw): my gag reflex kicks in immediately because T's lyrics are immature—juvenile, young/reckless, whatever you want to call it. as a result, i'm not prompted to really dig deeply into the lyrics.

maybe i shouldn't have said "dissociate" because i'm not playing Goblin on repeat over and over, and having to dissociate to enjoy it. if i loved the album, i'd prolly have to dissociate to keep enjoying it, but i never got to that point, really. the immaturity of it all (which is apparent above all to me) got to me first.

at the thrift store yesterday i got great CDs. monie, m.c. brains loverslane album and two emperor CDs. oh and a jackie-o motherfucker cd.

curse you all men

ah see when you open a post with "i don't really get worked up about OF lyrics tbh" I don't assume they make you gag

xpost

my engagement with the music (~3 spins of Goblin, one of Bastard, random other Earl/Frank/etc. trax on youtube) isn't deep or committed enough to even want to get into the "offensive" debate. yes it's offensive, but it also strikes me as immature above all else, which is what puts me off.

can i just point out i really like that awl piece i linked

http://www.theawl.com/2011/05/with-the-ladies-in-the-back-at-an-odd-future-show

"It'd be cool if OF enthusiasts could cop to letting some noxious shit pass and describe their personal reason for doing so"
i let noxious lyrical content and horrible mind wrenching musicianship (or lack of) pass on roughly 65% of what I listen to. I don't think there's ever been a time that i haven't? I was listening to cop killer and gangsta gangsta back in my teens and i've listened to songs about people singing crack and beating women and shooting people on the way in to work today. these are not actions i espouse and the art that is inherent in this music is entirely divisible.
also, i don't appreciate the contrived conflation of tyler's stage persona/EXPLICIT LYRICS with the actions of a crowd of assholes chanting slut slut slut; i'm not trying to defend the message or the fans, i'm saying i can like the music without buying into the value system/dipshittery. this is not a great leap for me.
my "personal reason for doing so" is probably close to the reasons I still eat meat: no, i can't justify the brutality and cruelty of the system but i like how it tastes.

would you liken Goblin to filet mignon, flank steak, rump roast, ground beef, or non-edible trimmings?

hey forks if you had finished reading that sentence and caught the "without doing the 'hey LOTS of art is toxic' weave" you could have just said "no, i can't justify the brutality and cruelty of the system but i like how it tastes."

"i've listened to songs about people singing crack and beating women and shooting people on the way in to work today. "

Man, that's a rough commute.

radio disney getting real out there

That Awl piece is really good.

also, i don't appreciate the contrived conflation of tyler's stage persona/EXPLICIT LYRICS with the actions of a crowd of assholes chanting slut slut slut

lol @ you reaching so far that drawing a connection a guy doing something onstage and a crowd's reaction is a "contrived conflation" - are you serious? you cannot be serious.

isn't it

like it actually approaches the is-this-noxious question from the angle of what behaviours it promotes in the real world, and in how people are actually relating to it, and then how that feeds back into what tyler is doing and embodying as part of odd future, rather than treating it as if every time he said a bad word it was in a vacuum

which is kind of nice i think, that someone wrote a piece that did that

.. xpost

I mean I know your next move is "what if somebody sings about murder, is he responsible for" etc yawn etc but you are actually arguing that it's weird or naive to connect the guy with the misogynist lyrics & the misogynist reaction of the crowd to presentation of said lyrics - it's not - it is quite obviously correct to do so

OTM

Sorry forks but I really don't think that's much of a stretch.