ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

all that is necessary for five string basses to triumph is for good men to do nothing

(before I go, I should mention that lex and aero cast it as negative in effect and forks is talking solely about Goblin and uses the term as value neutral)

Shakey, did you miss the part where Tyler told Sara Quinn she needed some hard dick over his twitter and you didn't give a shit? same deal man

DJP YOU CAN'T LEAVE WORK WE HAVE TO STAY HERE AND TALK ABOUT TYLER THE CREATOR.

uh yes I did miss that part and no I didn't say "I don't give a shit"

jeez

you may have missed the part where I said "sum total of articles/blog posts I have read about OF = 2" (now it's 3 if we count the Sady Doyle piece)

i'll cop to endorsing OF in general (not "defending", cuz it's only recently that the debate's started to slide this way).

i tried hard to like and to mentally excuse the tyler album cuz i'd cast myself as a fan and very much wanted it to be okay and for me to be okay with it. my initial response to "bitch suck dick", however, was a kind of gutshot despair, like i'd been conned into something horrible. that passed, i forced a kind of desensitization on myself, but in the long run, i have no idea where i stand. it's not like goblin is any more offensive than the earl record. and yeah, those live show stories are sickening.

I haven't even listen to Goblin and don't plan to, fwiw

listened

Kinda where I'm at too tbh xp to contender

also got bored with goblin like two tracks in, haven't revisited it yet

i just want to say something re: the argument that keeps cropping up (not here but everywhere else), that old people just don't get the music that young people like.

c'mon, i get it. i get that teenage boys are homophobic and misogynistic and gross. i know all about that! i don't think that shit should be humoured, though.

wait are you old now

yes :(

or like...middle-aged anyway

OLD

and yeah, those live show stories are sickening.

dammit this is the part where I want to scream. because yes: art can be complex, and writers can assume all manner of masks to express themselves. but maybe, just maybe, when a lot of people whose intelligence you can kinda verify say "this sounds more like actual-rape-sympathy than use of a rape trope toward some other aesthetic end," people might go "hmm why are people responding like this" instead of looking first-and-foremost for the "here's why this is ok" out? because it really feels to me like in the discourse around this subject there's more people looking immediately for the "no way the guy with all the rape talk might actually be a creepy ass misogynist" route than the "hmm, rape's kinda gross and this guy's way way into it, what's up w/this dude" response, which imo is the healthier, saner response. not that you can't say "ok I get that this is cathartic" or w/e, tbh the geto boys have a track called "dirty bitch" that's about murdering bushwick's ex-wife and I consider it a pretty fucking brilliant expression of pain and rage. but as I think I said early on, I'm a guy who listens to fucking goregrind. I'm fully capable of processing shocking art. and I think I have a finely enough tuned ear to not be just engaging some grandpa urge when I hear something that feels like it's not coming from an interest-in-exploring-tropes place but a reject-and-resist-this-because-this-is-genuinely-sympathetic-to-rape place.

there was a whole subtext to Eminem that you were supposed to care about his trials with his mom, his wife, his kid, that he had FEELINGS and he was MESSED UP and O THA TRAGEDY btw here's some rape jokes and fags are lame

the juxtaposition was actively irritating to me

― ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, February 25, 2011 10:14 PM (2 months ago) Bookmark

^^^all this stuff about Tyler being the emo one makes me think eh I probably won't like Goblin anyway

xp

altho in general I agree with deej that they are not really all that awesome/remarkable - the music's pretty hit or miss. there's some undeniably good rapping and the occasional great hook/beat but seems like there's a lot of crap to wade through. quantity over quality in the internet age, no surprise...

― american thinker (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, May 13, 2011 10:35 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark

also my opinion hasn't changed since last Friday fwiw lol

but maybe, just maybe, when a lot of people whose intelligence you can kinda verify say "this sounds more like actual-rape-sympathy than use of a rape trope toward some other aesthetic end," people might go "hmm why are people responding like this" instead of looking first-and-foremost for the "here's why this is ok" out?

that's maybe a little soapboxy. the tone and substance of debate in this thread has changed a lot over the last couple weeks.

i did try to square myself with goblin's gross teen misogyny vibes because i genuinely liked rolling papers, earl and bastard way back when, late last summer when i was first hearing this shit. at the time, i gently tried to spark some conversation about "epar" and the extreme degree of its awfulness, but not many wanted to pick up on it, and i didn't want to be all serious guy (something for which i often catch flak), so i let it drop. and, honestly, i did and still do think it's at least half brilliant - and completely reprehensible at the same time.

but as I think I said early on, I'm a guy who listens to fucking goregrind. I'm fully capable of processing shocking art. and I think I have a finely enough tuned ear to not be just engaging some grandpa urge when I hear something that feels like it's not coming from an interest-in-exploring-tropes place but a reject-and-resist-this-because-this-is-genuinely-sympathetic-to-rape place.

― w of in the attic (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:21 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

its definitely not genuinely sympathetic to rape but it's also not interested in exploring tropes

isn't OF almost a total study in 'tropes'

^ would say so

I wonder what Sady Doyle thinks about "Dirty Bitch"

dont relate to aerosmith's righteous speechifying itt but don't necessarily disagree w/ all of it, it's weird, might be inoculated to this stuff by being the same age/of the same generation as them, but imo rather than their music being about an interesting idea put forth abt rape/violence, whats interesting abt it is the intentional & unintentional tensions between everything that coexists w/in the music & in the discourse surrounding it. great rapping & juvenile humour alongisde ott misogyny, feelings abt homophobia but the whole time with a sense of it not actually being that serious

can make one person say "so what can you do?", while another might say "that shit's not okay, get out the bullhorns." why is one of those responses the "appropriate" one?

tactics tactics tactics. what's the desirable end result and what is most likely to achieve it. I'm a pragmatic sort.

so there's, like, one way to get what you want, and believing in a multiplicity of approaches meant to operate in different ways to different audiences is sheer sky-larking fantasy.

whats interesting abt it is the intentional & unintentional tensions between everything that coexists w/in the music & in the discourse surrounding it.

OTM, that's what makes it difficult for an older dude like me to process. i have the conditioned sense that i should object, that decency demands it, but for the most part, i see it all as trivial (gross live antics aside, for the moment) and don't really care to raise a stink. and i like the music. and my moral outrage seems like part of the gimmick, somehow, like it's supposed to be awful, and i'm supposed to howl, and they're supposed to laugh, and so on.

I would guess Sady would hate it & her position would be righteous? Jesus Christ Shakey you sure can get orthodox when you're cornered

not that you've ever heard of Sady before today or know anything about her politics aside from the one piece you read

I still tolerate all the icky parts of OF because what they're doing and the reactions they're provoking are still very raw, and I think that's interesting for various reasons, not in the least bcuz of where or how OF might grow/change (and I don't mean growing up or becoming objectively "better"). There is an expiration date on Tyler's shtick tho both publicly and for everyone individually.

the feminist pieces on OF have me changing my mind a bit, i do feel conflicted about this music now. whereas before my attitude was "i can think whatever i want about any topic 'cuz who cares what a herb like me thinks anyway" now i'm starting to think maybe it does say something very worrying about me that i can find a track like "epar" hilarious, or the fact that the pregnant "threesome" line in "tron cat" had me cracking up.

i remember a few years back reading about a group of casuals who went down to a local beach and seriously assaulted some disabled teenagers on a day trip, i'd never felt so angry in my life. but now i'm laughing at vince staples rapping:

"So by the seventh grade I thought that I was hard as shit
Ran up on the little bus, punched all the retarded kids"

and eagerly awaiting his album!

ugk 2 thread plz

do ppl really like lol at song lyrics or is that just something you say? i don't remember ever having done that

all the time, mostly just to rap, tbh. genuine irl lulz.

geto boys - gangster of love

^ laugh basically continuously throughout this song

I have laughed at lyrics in Weird Al songs and "Bitties in the BK Lounge"

Also "The Bad Touch" and assorted Smiths & The Beautiful South songs

and some PSB songs

basically I delight in laughing

i laugh at songs all the time
i actually was just laughing at deathgrips

obv I laughed at ICP songs

AT being the operative word, there.

oh we've laughed together as well

I haven't read this thread. This is actually the first time I've opened it and I only skimmed over today's discussion.

I can't really because I just googled the lyrics to one song and literally couldn't finish reading the whole thing. I don't have that sort of reaction to stuff like this often.

Just curious - have any female posters actually weighed in on this?

reddening is female iirc

so that means that 50% of film's female posters have weighed in?

reddening is female iirc

also otm

I didn't realize that! Ctrl F "reddening". Not that I'm sure the rest of you don't have some interesting things to say. I just honestly had no idea what this thread/group etc. was about until tonight and I just think it's interesting that there's so many posts about it and only one woman posting. I realize ILM is heavily male but still. It's always pretty interesting to me when that happens.

Fuck these idiots btw. Like I said I couldn't even get through one song and don't plan on reading anymore but anyone that knows me even a little bit here should know that I'm not easily offended and pretty laid back. I have, however, been sexually assaulted as have more of my friends than I can count on my fingers and maybe that makes me a little sensitive about the issue but uhhhhh whatever song I happened to google was flat out offensive and violent and awful and fuck anyone who can't plainly see why that's really awful and upsetting.

And if nobody actually said anything to that effect then I apologize for suggesting they may have. I may have gotten a little over-excited for just having skimmed the thread but there are so many posts. You've been busy.

I don't think anyone has said they're not offensive - clearly they are deliberately trying to sicken and offend ppl

prolly nobody would care except they're so good at it, and now they are top 10 billboard artists

hence the endless thread

the comments section on sady doyle's article have an interesting mix of pro- and anti-OF women

http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/05/18/tyler-the-creator-creates-43-year-old-joke/

I don't think anyone who listens to OF is without conflicted feelings about it. everybody goes through a cost/benefit analysis when it comes to offensive music, whether it's the mentors, GG allin, the geto boys, NWA, etc. a number of ppl in this thread are still trying to figure out where they stand in regards to OF.

tonight I'm alternating between celebrating the impending approval of civil unions in my state (passed the house, should clear senate), and posting defenses of homophobic rappers. eh, life.

does anybody really think they're homophobic, though? or just some really nasty, button-pushing trolls?