ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

putting a character loosely based on tyler in an upcoming episode of glee, having him learn about homophobia and how word hurt and end the episode with him & the cast singing "being boring" by pet shop boys

lol would watch

i mean if you've got the good tactics a hardcore free speech guy would use, what are they

I think there's a couple different issues at work here. One is shock value - OF is clearly an act that revels in doing things for shock value. If you want to rob something of it's shock value, the key is, duh, not to allow yourself to be shocked by it. Ignore it.

Now underneath the shock value is actual homophobia (which, frankly I don't really think OF are - at least not in the way that, say, 5 Percenters are), and dealing with that underlying issue requires stuff I'm sure GLAAD is hard at work on: legal protections, outreach, publicity, ie things that make it clear to homophobes that gay people are just like everyone else, deserving of the same level of respect, and that being gay is no big deal. Barring instances of specific incitement (ie, telling a crowd to kill someone at the show for being gay or something) I don't think getting into specific aesthetic criticisms of specific artists is really helpful in achieving these goals. It's too complex, and more often than not it just backfires and plays into the performers' hands. It's like when Vice interviewed those Nazi twin folk singer girls - regardless of the editors' intent, they just raised the band's profile.

but what if those nazi twin folk singer girls debuted at #5 on the billboard albums chart

if jon stewart didn't say anything *I'd* be offended

kinda what i was trying to get at before is that this has been aimed at and written about by indie-land people and its shocking to them cuz all they listen to is sweater-vest music. they don't listen to rap that much. 20+ years of gross-out/super-violent rap has totally passed them by. until now apparently.

woah what if odd future joined the 5 percent nation????

tyler's prodigious talents coupled with knowledge of self could be a dangerous thing

I eagerly await GLAAD's defense of Mister C btw

Cee

kinda what i was trying to get at before is that this has been aimed at and written about by indie-land people and its shocking to them cuz all they listen to is sweater-vest music. they don't listen to rap that much. 20+ years of gross-out/super-violent rap has totally passed them by. until now apparently.

not really - the tactic ppl take if you complain about this stuff in under-the-radar shit is then "who cares? nobody's listening anyway!" there's always a way to say "homophobia & misogyny don't matter," you just have to keep yr nose to the grindstone

found some of the responses to the mr. cee thing, by 50 and prodigy esp, pretty heartening

i mean the people offended don't listen to it and all of a sudden some pitchfork-type tells them how great this stuff is and they can't believe their ears. they lead sheltered lives. but i'm all for them being against it. it would be nice to see creative responses to the music. so far the people intrigued about the music and the people who like the music seem to be writing the best stuff about it.

xxxp: I was wondering what homophobic messages I missed on "Ebeneezer Goode"

but what if those nazi twin folk singer girls debuted at #5 on the billboard albums chart

maybe if they'd had more advance hysterical hand-wringing press coverage (rather than just a lone article in Vice) they would have

xp

well not everyone. there have been good responses on here from people who take issue with the stuff. but in written stuff off of here not so much.

found some of the responses to the mr. cee thing, by 50 and prodigy esp, pretty heartening

yeah that was interesting

whenever you publicly protest something someone has said or done, you're necessarily (hopefully) bringing increased attention to them. this works in various ways, and yes, can gift your target with a perverse sort of "success". rev fred phelps & co would be much less well-known were it not for those who've found cause for outrage in their actions.

don't think this suggests that people like T&S shouldn't speak out about that which they find intolerable.

man watching Shakey minimize people's responses w/classic hegemonic "you're overreacting!" style is so disheartening & icky

yeah I don't buy into that "they bought it cuz the press wrote about it", at least in this day and age

ppl might casually download some car wreck shit like nazi folk twins but they are plunking down hard earned cash nowadays because something like OF resonates with them

xps

if you complain about this stuff in under-the-radar shit is then "who cares? nobody's listening anyway!"

I'm not sure this is directed at me, but personally, I don't react this way. if I'm engaged by something, I don't really care how many other people are listening to it - that's immaterial.

xxxp

man watching Shakey minimize people's responses w/classic hegemonic "you're overreacting!" style is so disheartening & icky

c'mon dude how many times do you have to see this play out? Alice Cooper, the Sex Pistols, Public Enemy, NWA/Cube, Ice-T - all unforgivably offensive/transgressive/dangerous in their day, now lauded as upstanding citizens that made groundbreaking work. Public displays of approbation just don't work when it comes to this kind of thing.

oops forgot 2 Live Crew

people have the right to complain about whatever they want, but there's ample evidence that this kind of complaining does not achieve the intended effect.

Alice Cooper, the Sex Pistols, Public Enemy, NWA/Cube, Ice-T - all unforgivably offensive/transgressive/dangerous in their day, now lauded as upstanding citizens that made groundbreaking work.

what about the Insane Clown Posse and WASP

Do you remember when Sebastian Bach got in trouble for wearing a shirt that said "AIDS kills fags dead"? and now he stars in Broadway musicals and shit?

whether something "works" or not isn't even remotely the point - a lesbian voices her outrage over stuff she finds misogynist & homophobic and you drag out the word "hysterical" - that's fucking repulsive and you should be ashamed of yourself - next time you feel a twinge of anger over the whole righty "unhinged left" caricature, remember that that's the exact game you brought to the table to ridicule the quieter voice in a conversation

also Sara Quin's post was directed at challenging OF enthusiasts in indie culture, far more than an attempt to shut Tyler up himself

whether something "works" or not isn't even remotely the point -

?

the quieter voice in a conversation

also lol at the idea that my voice is louder than GLAAD or Tegan and Sara or even yours dude

like nobody knows who the fuck I am and outside of the 10 people reading this thread nobody cares either, so let's stop identifying me as the hegemonic oppressor and shit

there you go again, being The Man and telling us all what to do

o rly

http://www.aeronewsdaily.com/122909.jpg

"works/doesn't work" isn't pertinent in any way & you know it - nothing anybody can do will persuade Tyler that he should be more considerate - nobody's trying to make that effect, in any way - Tegan & Sara as croup points out is calling guys like yrself out for bending over backwards to tell people how they shouldn't feel when they're being insulted & marginalized - you are speaking on behalf of the hegemony here; you've taken it upon yourself to go "lol, you're offended!" at somebody who just expressed her opinion - that makes you the bad guy as far as I'm concerned & as we discussed earlier, your privilege counts as privilege whether you've got a lot of weight to throw around or just the small-stakes of a meaningless thread

the "quieter voice" is Sara Q btw - I'm loud as fuck and everybody knows it because of my great popularity & influence

there's ample evidence that this kind of complaining does not achieve the intended effect.

― underrated earl sweatshirt fans i have boned (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 19, 2011 11:07 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah, i dunno. "ample evidence" is a phrase that sounds meaningful, but is hard to pin down. i'd say there's good evidence of this sort of protest working and not working, in various ways, in various situations. too complex a situation to summarize with appeals to evidence in general.

The funny thing about people like Scott saying "huh I guess these people freaking out over OF have never heard of the rich history of misogyny & homophobia in rap" is that you could just as easily say "gee, every critic going apeshit over Tyler's mix of violent, oppressive bile and weird-ass vulnerability hasn't heard Schooly D"

c'mon dude how many times do you have to see this play out? Alice Cooper, the Sex Pistols, Public Enemy, NWA/Cube, Ice-T - all unforgivably offensive/transgressive/dangerous in their day, now lauded as upstanding citizens that made groundbreaking work. Public displays of approbation just don't work when it comes to this kind of thing.

^ actually agree with shakey on this, though I guess in sara & tegan's case it could be said it's a way for them to bond with the disenfranchised elements of their audience over the sucky facticity of tyler's popularity, your silence will not protect you etc, having an "effect" might not even be part of the equation for them besides speaking out, idk

although you know the message was attributed to sara, for all we know tegan is bumping goblin 24/7

"works/doesn't work" isn't pertinent in any way & you know it - nothing anybody can do will persuade Tyler that he should be more considerate - nobody's trying to make that effect, in any way

I really don't get this logic. why say anything at all then?

Tegan & Sara as croup points out is calling guys like yrself out for bending over backwards to tell people how they shouldn't feel when they're being insulted & marginalized

I'm not bending over backwards. they feel insulted/marginalized, hey that's their right. I too, am insulted and marginalized by things, and it sucks to feel that way. but when they step into the public arena to try and exercise some kind of influence, that's a different thing. except you're saying they (and GLAAD?) aren't trying to exercise influence...? idgi
xxxp

yeah, anthony, i guess i always find it a little weird when ONE thing gets all the attention or vitriol or whatever. and then it just makes me wonder if people are paying attention or something. cuz this country is kinda dripping with violent shit and has been forever. real, fantasy, and every other kind of violence. but maybe that one thing or one example is what people need to rally around and work to change whatever it is they want to change. tyler is the poster child at this point in time.

xp they're trying to tell people who minimize the hatefulness of misogyny and homophobia to cut it the fuck out or at least think about what the effect is on people when minimize those things

you're telling them "lol you're stupid" for giving a shit

yeah, anthony, i guess i always find it a little weird when ONE thing gets all the attention or vitriol or whatever. and then it just makes me wonder if people are paying attention or something.

but this also goes both ways! if this shit is too old hat to get offended by, how is it not too old hat for fans to get excited about

I dunno about you but "we listened to this record and we were personally hurt by it!" was not the message I got from that GLAAD press release

xxxp

why say anything at all then?

to raise awareness and promote a point of view

and yeah tyler's just a cresting-above moment - shit is endemic/epidemic/not-new - and "how come this is interesting to you when it's in rap music and the ingrained misogyny of popular culture doesn't really reach you?" is a valid question for sure - but the one doesn't cancel the other out, or respond in a meaningful way really - it's just an additional point, not a countering one

although you know the message was attributed to sara, for all we know tegan is bumping goblin 24/7

― oh! me so brodie (Edward III), Thursday, May 19, 2011 1:18 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

fwiw teegs like shabazz palaces a lot more, told me when i ran into her backstage at broken bells

doesn't it make more sense to get annoyed by Yet Another Misogynist Homophobic Rap Hype if you know your history than to wild out to it?

you're telling them "lol you're stupid" for giving a shit

I guess I kinda am. I can tell them from experience that I am a happier person for ignoring works of art that are specifically attempting to get a rise out of people like me.

xp

shakey do you refuse to acknowledge that their goal was to ask their peers to think about what they're getting off on, rather than to confront tyler himself

unless you think pitchfork's just trying to get a rise out of them

shakey do you refuse to acknowledge that their goal was to ask their peers to think about what they're getting off on

seems like kind of a funny thing to ask of their peers when their peers appear to already be doing an awful lot of talking/thinking/writing about these guys tbh. but what do I know - sum total of blog posts/reviews I have read about this band = 2. maybe most of the articles about them do not address the homophobiz/violence/mysogyny. I kind of doubt it tho, it seems awful central to their music.