Indie Guilt: C/D

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Also race only enters this discussion if you assume indie and hip-hop to be the only poles of musical existence, as opposed to just easy examples for this particular discussion.

― nabisco%%, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Dubplatestyle: haha i love how we're arguing with the guy from the mountain goats and the ex-editor of the wire.
et HAN P2 3: god and we're like the two biggest schlubs ever
Dubplatestyle: hahaha
Dubplatestyle: we've never done anything with our lives.
et HAN P2 3: ilm: the great equalizer.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

jess did you know that despite common beliefs these so-called 'wiggas' actually have very little to do with william henry harrison's 'whig' party?

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

my head hurtz.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

whig theory of pop = influence is the key

(this is TRUE!! well nearly kinda w.some stretching and tweaking)

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Also race only enters this discussion if you assume indie and hip-hop to be the only poles of musical existence, as opposed to just easy examples for this particular discussion.

I understand why you say this, but don't you think there's a subtext here (and this is the aspect of my "race card" post that wasn't in jest) that indie people gravitate towards forms of hip-hop that are somehow less "authentic" because they feel threatened by -- or at least a lack of affinity towards -- certain aspects of African-American culture? Maybe I'm wrong, but I've gotten that sense throughout this thread, and on many other occasions.

― Phil, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

but, eminem!

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

My first reaction is to say "exception that proves the rule" but no, that's bullshit. Lemme chew on it.

(What do indie kids think of Eminem, anyway?)

(And where does the myth of the badass fit into all this?)

― Phil, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(What do indie kids think of Eminem, anyway?)

(That was 68.4% in jest)

― Phil, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

What do indie kids think of Eminem, anyway?

They "quite like" that Eminem/Smiths bootleg.

GOodnight.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

dom are you going to black out now?

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Anyone who engages in two-dimensional, broad-brush slags of indie people -- a group among whom I don't really number myself, by the way, although I do like a fair amount of indie label stuff -- is implicitly waiving their right to ever complain at receiving the same treatment.

Yes this is why indie people (in the general not the specific sense) got the broad-brush slags in the first place Phil! They claimed "mainstream" or "Top 40" as a genre = they got the same treatment back.

Nitsuh has misunderstood my point I think. I consciously said that I find people who listen to lots of things more interesting than people who listen to one thing, without specifying what that one thing might be. eg I think the Jay-Z/Nas thread is funny and entertaining but I also don't actually read it much.

(I'm also not saying that it's very difficult or effortful to listen to lots of things - my cousin Leila listens to lots of things - hip- hop, nu-metal, guitar pop, teen-pop, trance, big ballads, ragga - every time she puts on the NOW records I buy her.)

― Tom, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

awwww, look. tom's trying to be revive a corpse.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I understand why you say this, but don't you think there's a subtext here (and this is the aspect of my "race card" post that wasn't in jest) that indie people gravitate towards forms of hip-hop that are somehow less "authentic" because they feel threatened by -- or at least a lack of affinity towards -- certain aspects of African-American culture? I think it's rather that indie people tend to be quite interested/obsessed in/by the question of what the artist means to do with his art/how the artist conceives of his art (sc. "/her") and Arrested Development/De La Soul/etc telegraph their punches in this regard

Though the crossover of Naughty By Nature's f'in' brilliant and f'in' hard-ass debut remains a mystery to this day

― John Darnielle, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

people who listen to lots of things
Unless it's hiding fear of commitment.

― cuba libre (nathalie), Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Though the crossover of Naughty By Nature's f'in' brilliant and f'in' hard-ass debut remains a mystery to this day.

it might have something to do with hooks.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yes this is why indie people...got the broad-brush slags in the first place Phil! They claimed "mainstream" or "Top 40" as a genre = they got the same treatment back.

Er, I already figured that one out, Tom...:-) My point was that, by offering the same treatment back -- rather than by positing an inclusive, uniting "third way" in which the virtues of good pop and good indie are appreciated -- you're basically "sinking to their level" = acknowledging that you have nothing more interesting to say (than what they're saying) = acknowledging that their behavior was completely legitimate, since you're engaging in it too.

― Phil, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

that wasn't meant to sound as flip as it did.

(haha, contrary to this thread, i can actually produce coherent thoughts.)

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

hooks yes so are you saying that the hooks outweigh the "threat" which whitey is purported to feel when hearing real hiphop? because NBN's first meets each hook with some fairly legit underground styles even on OPP (which was popular let's face it because 1) the Jackson 5 rule the freaking WORLD and 2) everybody likes to think about the "p" word)

― John Darnielle, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

not to worry Jess this thread is far too much fun to take anything personally

except for that bit about my ace of base cover being my best work

kidding kidding

― John Darnielle, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

john you cant be down with opp and ice cube!!

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

thats like being a lo fi folk rocker who listens to nwa or something

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

click here.

For fairness' sake - so people on ILM can get an idea of what the "new" people on this thread usually talk about.

― 34523, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I get your point Phil - but that "third way" is what I've been trying to do with FT from the beginning, and of course nobody at all (comparatively) reads the non-indie articles, and people read the pro- indie articles but never reply, and the occasional jokey taste-of-own- medicine anti-indie piece gets a huge shitstorm of response. Even on ILM there is much much less anti-indie stuff than people seem to think, in my opinion.

― Tom, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

tell that to the people at the BDP show when OPP came through the system

NB yes I know BDP are too "conscious" to count as black according to most anglo interpreters of hiphop roolz

― John Darnielle, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Let me try that again

― 234523525, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

was that meant to be a link to bitchpork? i hate those fuckin guys

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I posted that link because there's a lot of ILM bashing there and even behind-the-back personal bashing eg. toward Josh, when they could easily confront it/them directly, right here on ILM. I mean, that's what this very thread is, but a lot of festering and preparation went into it.

― 6433, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Christ my last post came off totally humorless and stiff

let's have another g + t shall we

― John Darnielle, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

No, it's the Fake Matador Bulletin Board, where they proclaim ILM's worthlessness while mostly serving as the usual "what I listened to today" "here's that band/concert info" indie board. The usual.

― 667, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

haha saddest online community ever!

(which is a bit like being the tallest midget, yes, but still...)

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I like how they think they aren't insular and snide. Twisted view of reality, that. I have some first-hand experience with their childish backstabbing.

― Melissa W, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

well at least they dont make fun of people for what music they listen to like SOME forums!!

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

haha, i like how either josh or i is listed as "dr. funk's favorite." i want that on my tombstone.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Today's pop is tomorrow's indie. The "bootlegging craze" = indie whether you like it or not.

― electric sound of jim, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

so, should we make that final push then?

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i mean, because i'm exhausted...

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

the fmbb link just made it all so sad now, theyve sucked the joy out of ilm with their well-planned assault

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

THE TERRORISTS HAVE ALREADY WON

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I do like their layout. It's lots of fun clicking for one-liners.

― cuba libre (nathalie), Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

and if i ever meet any of them it'll be a hard fuckin kick in the teeth for that anti-josh bullshit

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Jim's "B-b-b-but everything's indie" argument is probably the most tenable I've come across because 'indie' is such a meaningless, know- it-when-you-see-it category. He hears bootlegging as indie, I don't, who's right? Who knows! It's like Jess' argument on some previous thread that all indie is basically pop anyway (Melissa called me on my doing similar swerves once and I wish she'd posted a thread). So why still use words like "indie" and "pop"? Because these big overarching macro-genres are still things that people recognise themselves in. I reckon.

― Tom, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

ladies and gentlemen, 300 new posts in less than 12 hours. i'm going to bed.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah, the Josh stuff is bullshit. You get this whole spiel about how on their bulletin board they'd never criticise somebody for their music taste, oh goodness no, they'd spend half a day turning a thread into a nasty personal attack instead.

― Tom, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

NOTHING CAN STOP US NOW

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Never pegged you as a Moby fan.

― Melissa W, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

or maybe it was SAINT ETIENNE!!!!!

― electric sound of jim, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Jay Z and Other Throw downs look out.
Intense. Fucking Intense. Im just glad I dont know any of that other board or folks like it irl.

― Mr Noodles, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

dammit this is funny:

Rx@C
Re: ILM is now password protected (JOSH: please read)
Wed May 29 22:18:43 2002
65.184.16.82

Ethan (the "funny guy" of ILM) threatened to kick all of your teeth in. I think he lives in LA (where I'm headed this weekend). I think he's in a new wave band (I think Oingo Boingo covers?), will have to check this out! If it doesn't work out, I could email him my address in case he comes up to SF.

― Ron, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

btw his next post corrected his error but i still love the idea of ethan singing oingo boingo songs!

― Ron, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

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