Joy Division: Classic Or Dud?

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*counts down towards the looming appearance of an Alex in NYC on the horizon*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 20 September 2004 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Joy Div/Factory types used to be called "long macs" or the "long mac brigade" up our way. Joy Div + Cab V written in felt-tip pen on khaki gas mask case bought from army surplus store.

The first thing that couyld be fairly be called "Goth" in the uk that I remember was UK Decay and "positive punk". Posipunk!! Stu P Didiot!

Joy Div were great, and I can honestly say that few other bands have meant as much to me over the years (creak, creak)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 20 September 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

All true - although of course UK Decay started out as (The Resitors) a pretty straightforward punk band.

Let's not also forget The Pack (who morphed into Theatre Of Hate), The Mob, Rudimentary Peni, Zounds....

I was never too sure what these bands were supposed to be so "Positive" about 'cos they all semed quite gloriously pissed off to me!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 20 September 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i guess for me it's that "goth" (or whatever somewhat vague notion i have of "goth") seems to be about those things that i least appreciate in this and other bands. the whole despair-chic thing has always annoyed me, and a lot of JD lyrics strike me as laughable when i actually bothered to parse them (very rarely).

― amateur!!st, Monday, 20 September 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

ten months pass...

from neworderonline.com:

Interview with Annik Honoré

The Belgian music magazine, Side-Line, has interviewed Annik Honoré for
their 52th Summer issue. Honoré had a relation with Ian Curtis up until the moment he died in 1981. She has always refused talking about the matter in public although Curtis ex-wife was not exactly flattering about her in interviews over the years. She has granted an exception to Side-Line Music Magazine. In the interview Honoré talks about the why she decided to speak openly and what Ian meant to her.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 5 August 2005 23:25 (twenty years ago)

Woah. This is news...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 5 August 2005 23:41 (twenty years ago)

Trying to pronounce "52th" is breaking my brane.

And Yes, very big news. I wonder what language it's in or if there's a translation. I'll try to track it down.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 5 August 2005 23:53 (twenty years ago)

Fifty-tooth, obviously.

― Telephonething (Telephonething), Saturday, 6 August 2005 01:01 (twenty years ago)

Fascinating. Side-Line's website is in English:

http://www.side-line.com/index.

― stevo (stevo), Saturday, 6 August 2005 07:09 (twenty years ago)

Just to return to the premise of this thread (since I wasn't around these parts when it was first discussed and I'm resentful and envious of that so fuck yers), how could there even be a question of Joy Division being dud? I honestly can't envisage being this intransigent about any other band, but Joy Division are so unquestionably, self-evidently, objectively, definitively CLASSIC that it seems like a pointless academic exercise spawned by either boredom or scattershot malice to even hint otherwise.

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 7 August 2005 02:57 (twenty years ago)

(Ha ha, that's with my diplomacy filter completely removed.)

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 7 August 2005 02:58 (twenty years ago)

Omg you like a totally overrated sacred cow! Fucking listen to something new!

― I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Sunday, 7 August 2005 02:59 (twenty years ago)

Oh, I don't only listen to JD, of course!

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 7 August 2005 04:43 (twenty years ago)

On reflection, I shouldn't even have to say that. You were kidding, weren't you.

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 7 August 2005 04:44 (twenty years ago)

My tongue was in cheek, but really, Joy Division isn't that great. (FWIW, I have the 4 cd box set thingee.) COMSAT ANGELS bro; that is the ILL shit.

― I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Sunday, 7 August 2005 04:47 (twenty years ago)

I love Joy Division.

― nicholas de jong (nicholas de jong), Sunday, 7 August 2005 06:08 (twenty years ago)

Comsat Angels I like, but JD came along at a time and a place (I was still living in Manchester back then, so Ned's early-thread surmising of people arriving at JD through NO doesn't jibe for me) that's unrepeatable. There's a shitload of memories wrapped up there. I was just listening to Les Bains Douches again, and it's still astonishing. I really couldn't give a damn about Curtis's death cult or long macs (never wore one, even back then) or thin ties (hello Barney) or even all the Peter Saville and Paul Morley (? Whose writing I like a lot, though) mystique-making. It's always been about their vast howl of noise -- the live sound we'll never experience again (even the greatness of Les Bains Douches is a pale shadowplay of their actual sound) and Hannett's studio-alterna-world funeral-vault dread-hush.

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 7 August 2005 06:10 (twenty years ago)

I don't think I ever want to listen to them outside of, occasionally, "transmission". who thought it was a good idea to crossbreed the doors & the velvet underground, &c&c&c.

― etc, Sunday, 7 August 2005 06:14 (twenty years ago)

My favorite Joy Division photo is the one of teenage Ian wearing a NEKTAR tshirt. I love how punk is just rudimentary wannabe prog. But don't tell anyone!

― Hop Frog, Sunday, 7 August 2005 06:19 (twenty years ago)

joy division don't sound like the doors or the velvet underground.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 7 August 2005 06:55 (twenty years ago)

For me, Joy Division is totally CLASSIC, but I could see how someone might dud them due to Ian's voice which can get to be an incessant downer (not for me though). The music though, is difficult to be at all negative about.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Sunday, 7 August 2005 08:05 (twenty years ago)

all things considered, and weighing up all the pros and cons ... they're still the best band in the history of everything ever. i listened to "closer" the other day - for, what, perhaps the 1,000th time? - and it is still, still breathtaking. it still blows my mind. i still find it too intense, too difficult to listen to much of the time, but ... it is unimpeachable.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 7 August 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, Fred. Me. I think Joy Division's lyrics are, by and large, awful. In fact, reading the lyrics years ago, I thought they were, by- and-large, just so average moaning that I never bothered to actually figure out when Ian Curtis was saying any of it. Their lyrics are what I'd describe NOW in my old age as "Radioheadesque", which, if you know me, is not a compliment. I cannot sing along with any Joy Division song besides New Dawn Fades and Love Will Tear Us Apart. ANY of them.

-- Ally (lilbabynothin...), April 5th, 2001.
i agree - i put it on in the background as i surf ge net but can't whistle or hum or sing anything except "love will tear us apart".i can't hear the verse in that song.

― sernard bummer, Sunday, 7 August 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

and i like "digital" ( day in day out).
found this samples site
http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album/0,,335588,00.html

― sernard bummer, Sunday, 7 August 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

Iggy Pop sounds like The Doors and the Velvet Underground. Joy Division sounds like Iggy Pop/stooges minus the blues.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 7 August 2005 15:44 (twenty years ago)

God, you people are smoking crack.

― I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Sunday, 7 August 2005 16:28 (twenty years ago)

closer to classic, but ian's lyrics are insufferable/indefensible. this is less problematic on tracks like "transmission," "love will tear us apart," "new dawn fades" or "isolation" as the backing is solid enough to support the music without relation to lyrics. but then there are too many tracks (especially on "closer") when the instrumental section (heck, the song itself) simply acts as an anchor for ian's unbearable poetry. in my mind, i try to distinguish between those songs that represent jd the band and those that represent ian curtis the spoken word failure.

― you will be shot (you will be shot), Sunday, 7 August 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

ian curtis the spoken word failure

hahahahah, that's superb. i mean, totally wrong and everything, but superb all the same.

― grimly fiendish the unspoken-word bronze-medallist (grimlord), Sunday, 7 August 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I know I'm probably coming across as a lockstep Joy Division acolyte or something (I walked in line?), but I don't even get this "their lyrics were awful" thing. New Order I can see (and I also love New Order), but Joy Division?Name any band that doesn't have some clunkers somewhere along the way, but JD's lyrics are for the most part fine, work well with their music, while being fairly inessential. What do people want? Contemporary poetry or something? They were a rock band, ffs!

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 7 August 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

A cry for help, a hint of anaesthesia
The sound from broken homes - we used to always meet here
As he lays asleep she takes him in her arms
Some things I have to do, but I don't mean you harm

sure, sing all you want. but don't make it the meat of the song.

― you will be shot (you will be shot), Sunday, 7 August 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

sure, sing all you want. but don't make it the meat of the song.

er: but surely that's the listener's choice, to choose what's the "meat of the song"? i can understand curtis's voice grating slightly, but it's no higher in the mix than 99 per cent of other vocalists. christ, i love a whole load of bands with appalling lyrics, but ... i don't get offended by them. (except morrissey, natch.)

as discussed at length elsewhere on ILM, lyrics usually only work in conjunction with the rest of the song, as part of the whole - out of context they can seem jejune. i'm not trying to claim ian curtis is a great poet or seer, but for me he certainly hits a chord of pure disaffection, of worldly horror, that still resonates today as much as it did when i first heard joy division's songs.

[considers mounting a gratuitious attack on bob dylan, just for the fuck of it; decides against it.]

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 7 August 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

Yay gratuitous attacks on Bob Dylan! But I am biased.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

See, now I'm completely confused, because if I had to choose one artist and one band for a desert island, Dylan and Joy Division might well be my choices.

(Dylan is my one -- inexplicable -- exception where lyrics are as much a part of my enjoyment of him as the music.)

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)

heheh.

i have a deep, deep-rooted loathing of bob dylan. but a lot of it is based not so much on his music as on the way in which he's deified. indeed, i've occasionally found myself listening to his music and enjoying it. for that reason, i now have to avoid him at all costs :)

irrational? me? perish the thought.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

Well done, sir. (Tom Ewing's done the best arguing for being a Dylan fan I've ever read precisely it talks about *enjoying* him on a variety of levels instead of pulling forelocks and going "Saint, leader, oh mystic god," etc.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

ooh: i should read that. i'm assuming a cursory search of the FT archives will unearth it?

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:39 (twenty years ago)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/dylan.html

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:15 (twenty years ago)

And indeed there ya go. Even a quick skim of it remind me of how good a writer Tom is!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

I've never met anyone under, say, 30 who regards Dylan as any kind of poet or seer; they regard him as a great singer and songwriter who has often made wonderful albums. Thus, the argument that somehow his fans are the real problem in enjoying his work is specious (our parents, and Christopher Ricks, are another matter).

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

I've never met anyone under, say, 30 who regards Dylan as any kind of poet or seer

Yes, but that is YOUR experience. My experience is otherwise, and thus we move into the wonderful realm of difference.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:33 (twenty years ago)

Man. I suspect, Ned, that you have to address this Dylan issue every day. On the subway, or at the grocery store, say.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:07 (twenty years ago)

This perhaps is what working on a college campus can do for one.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:08 (twenty years ago)

I work at one too. One of my student employees asked me to bring "a good CCR comp" for him to burn tomorrow. I'm an obliging chap.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:25 (twenty years ago)

Bless yer heart. (I long ago sold mine.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:28 (twenty years ago)

Heh. Your heart or your CCR comp?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:32 (twenty years ago)

Yes.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:33 (twenty years ago)

one year passes...

"I've been waiting for a guide to come and take me by the hand" = Inferno, innit? Is that obvious? I repeat mself, see. Two notes. Outside. Lose the feeling.

― I Supersize Disaster (noodle vague), Monday, 4 September 2006 19:56 (nineteen years ago)

Hmm some dodgy lyrics, agreed (some great ones too tho) but decent delivery no? I think Curtis sells his lines pretty convincingly (enough to make it sound much more than mere moaning about pies)

― gekoppel (Gekoppel), Monday, 4 September 2006 21:19 (nineteen years ago)

seven months pass...

The forthcoming Anton Corbijn bio-pic ‘Control: The Ian Curtis Film' fills me with both anticipation and foreboding. I understand Corbijn - who has invested his lifesavings in the project - has based the film primarily on Deborah Curtis’s memoir ‘Touching from a Distance’; she also is credited as ‘co-producer’.

Much as I admire her courage in writing and publishing that book how much critical distance can Corbijn then take in a film based around the breakdown of her marriage, her husband’s infidelity and eventual suicide?

On a lighter note, forgive me JD purists but I find this hilarious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4riV9A5KRB

― stevo-r, Monday, 16 April 2007 10:17 (nineteen years ago)

whoops, try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4riV9A5KRBU

― stevo-r, Monday, 16 April 2007 10:18 (nineteen years ago)

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