TS: R.E.M.'s "Life's Rich Pageant" vs "Document"

No, no, this is totally OTM. It would be even more OTM if you could swap Monster for Out of Time.

And it's LRP 6-4 + whatever credit attaches to Underneath the Bunker. Very gratified to see so much love here for "Just a Touch" -- the one song I'd really have liked to see them play.

LRP and Document were probably my two favorite R.E.M. records in 1991, but "The One I Love" and "End of the World" haven't aged as well as some of the other hitzzzz (though the great ending of EotW sneaks it past Amanita still.) I think Murmur beats both of these.

But with time, I came to see it as what it is: a - may I say this? - tour de force of R.E.M.'s strengths. It's like a showcase of their considerable powers. "Fall on Me" (Michael's favorite, as you may know) is essence of R.E.M., with Mike Mills harmonies and jangling (I'm a rock critic!) guitars. And the rest of the songs already cited showed how R.E.M. could swing from folk to rock and back again.

So yeah, it's an odd little album. It's weird, because its perfection somehow, oddly, makes it forgotten. It seems like it's universally acclaimed, yet rarely discussed. Almost taken for granted.

But that may just be me.

it augurs a rather uneven period from which they didn't emerge until the release of Out of Time

green is better than both of these and out of time.

TS: "Rain On The Scarecrow" vs "I Believe"

"Rain on the Scarecrow" kicks just about any song's ass up, down and sideways.

I might agree with this. Actually, I think Fables WOULD HAVE been their best album if it had been produced better.

So Alfred are you saying it's only almost-great because some of the lyrics are opaque? Might have been full-on great if he'd been saying something more explicit?

I saw them do it live a couple of years ago and he was talking about how he never gets to catch his breath in the song and (goofing) fell down when it was over.

Do it sound to anyone like a different take punched in when he gets to the line "Trust in your calling?"

Lifes Rich Pageant, though I've burned out on bits of it a little, and NEVER liked What If We Give It Away, is just packed with great songs that SOUND great. No contest.

always thought it was "i believe the poles are shifting"

But yes, LRP is pretty much perfect - great songs, lots of variety, stellar lead and backing vox and a really punchy, garagey sound. No duff tracks, in comparison with the wretched 'It's the End Of The World', and the dull Fireplace and Lightnin' Hopkins. I'm not sure about Exhuming McCarthy either. I hated it at first, but now I think it's a half-written curio, perhaps not bad, but sub-standard definitely. I've always loved Welcome To The Occupation - great vocals on that, especially near the end : 'Listen To Meee, LISTEN to MEEE'.

I also think that Fables might be the best of the lot though.

It's his enunciation that's imprecise.

If you really stretch the idea, "Disturbance at the Heron House" has a subtle political message, though, even if it is (I agree) child-like (but not childish). It's somewhat of a cry against mindlessly obeying authority. And it has a nice opening riff from Peter Buck to coat the messsage.

"You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen."

and

"Vested interest united ties, landed gentry rationalize
Look who bought the myth, buy jingo, buy America"

I don't know, I think that's much more clear (and less subtle) than anything on LRP, though I like the song enough, anyway (just the sharp horn-break with the "McCarthy hearings" sound-bite is enough for me to like it).

Put a gun to my head and demand I choose one over the other, I'd probably go with LRP. That being said, Document heads into some interesting sonic territory on side two, once you pass "The One I Love." I'm thinking of "Fireplace," "Lightning Hopkins" and "Oddfellows 151" in particular. The band cooked up some new studio ideas with percussion and guitar for those, leading to a new style for them, kind of a feeback laden, Mission of Burma/Gang of Four-ish style, with maybe even some Sonic Youth moves dropped in (I'm pretty sure Peter Buck was name dropping SY in the press by 1987).

But, recently a friend gave me a dvd of an rem concert on some german show (the same show that wire dvd is from) and it was in support of fables and they played hyena and fall on me (with improvised verses), so they definitely wrote those themselves.

whoa! can anyone else substantiate this?

It's tough.

it was a secret supposedly to the public, but in athens people were like "oh yeah that guy just lives off of rem royalties because he wrote most of lifes rich pageant". and these were mutual friends saying this. i never knew him well enough to hear it from his mouth, but that's what his friends said. i remember thinking at the time it was weird that someone could just live off of songwriting royalties but now that i know more about bizzzzzzzzzzz it makes sense.

I adore Document.

you're not yet young
there's time to teach

Swan Swan H < King of Birds (close)

I no longer thing this is close, King of Birds by a wide margin (but both are great)

I've always been and remain a Lifes Rich Pageant fan, I think it's their best album. But I also think I've undervalued Document, it's really pretty good. Listening to it now. It's another one of their murkier albums, like Fables. But was also their actual commercial breakout, their first platinum album and first top 10 album and single.

Aside from the hits, Document is a pretty weird album. It's good, but LRP was the album that pulled me into REM. Swan Swan H and Superman being on the same tape blew me away.

Document came out my freshman year of college, I'm sure I bought it the day it was released. That tour was the first time I saw them, which was great. I was at the time kind of disappointed in the album, it definitely didn't grab me like LRP had. But on its own merits, it has a lot of good songs and also yeah just a generally weird and kind of dark vibe.

despite one or two shiny pop hits each most of their middle period albums have weird and dark vibes!

Speaking of weird dark vibes, I never understood the lack of enthusiasm for Fables. Sometimes it’s my favorite.

I don’t like the mix or guitar parts on Fables, me. Murmur and Reckoning and Pageant are my big ones— but I never “got” Green or Out Of Time— then on Automatic and Hi-Fi, Stipe started REALLY singing and I love it. Special shout to the second half of Accelerate, a ray of light in their long sundown

LRP blows Document out of the water. I have tried so many times with Document but it never clicks. The songs are fine but I feel like it’s the first album where the production got so airy and clear that it demands a different style of songwriting, which doesn’t really start to kick in until parts of Green and then fully on OOT.

I do like King of Birds a lot though

fgti i think we’re are similar REM fans, at least i agree with just about everything you just wrote although I rate Fables a bit more

god I love Fireplace

Great song, I’d probably love it if it were produced like either the era before or after this one

fgti perfectly otm on this topic

Finest Worksong is a fucking jam

I was too young for the early stuff. My brother, who was seven years older, was obsessed with them, but all the singles from that era kind of annoyed me.

I started digging through the early recently and made an “early REM” playlist and “Country Geedback” was probably the biggest revelation.

AFTP came out when I was in middle school and I loved it. It was my only REM album. I later ate at Weaver D’s once a week for like 2 years straight and got to hear “automatic!” every time my food was ready.

Feedback

It's interesting how much my taste was affected by economics (my tape-buying budget) as well as happenstance.

In those days I could afford a collection (Eponymous for example) but jot necessarily every previous record that fed it. Owning every full album was out of the question; one had to choose.

In those instances you would miss out on album tracks that had not been chosen for the collection, giving a distorted lens.

(This is also shaped by what was available in stores and also what one could copy from friends.)

Long way of saying I had Fables, LRP, Greeen, and some other odds and ends* But a full listening of Document didn't reach my ears until later. And Murmur and DLO still later.

* "Losing my Religion" was a muthaflippin CASSINGLE, yo.

oh yeah, that resonates. i had Out of Time on cassette, then Automatic as one of the first 20 or 30 CDs I ever bought. Somewhere around there I went back and got Eponymous but didn't actually hear the full IRS albums until years later.

My cassette of Automatic had some kind of tape issue, and it had this soft thump every few seconds - although strangely it always kept in time with the songs. Obviously it wasn't meant to be there, but pre-interent I kept wondering "is this deliberate?!?"

Now when I hear it on streaming I miss the thump.

I like Document a lot, although it's very metallic and oppressive! Their most "indie" record? In my head it kind of slots into Warehouse: Songs and Stories and Candy Apple Grey.

*pre-internet

I love Document and think it’s one of their very best albums.

Re: Document, I noticed a lot of later reissues really boost the upper frequencies which brings out a metallic (and I would add harsh, clangy and bright) sound, but I always preferred the original releases, including CD, which mastered it pretty well - you get that metallic quality without going too overboard with it, and it's more about muscle that the ear-bleeding highs.

I love both of these albums myself, though I love all of their I.R.S. albums. LRP I'm guessing was a surprising turn - getting John Mellencamp's producer was probably an unexpected choice, and it turned out brilliant.

(And IIRC Mills and/or Buck said they got Gehman specifically because they loved the sound he got on Mellencamp's records.)

I don’t like the mix or guitar parts on Fables

I love the PARTS, but they went from great guitar and amp sounds on the early records to who knows what in the London studio with Boyd.