TS: GRIME vs JUNGLE/DRUM N BASS

I'm waiting for Breakcore and Microhouse representation! Surely there must be numbers unallocated somewhere between Babestation and Man United TV??

they play any black british music, really. grimes just what people associate with it now, cos channel u has been instrumental in many grime artists' success.

General Levy haha.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40961000/jpg/_40961945_faceofboe300.jpg

This is off-base, not because it's not true but because most of the people who "over-intellectualise" grime (including myself) did the same for jungle, 2-step etc.

I'm resistant to the line of thinking that says some genres in particular simply don't require or merit in-depth discussion/analysis/etc. Either intellecualising is bad across the board or its not. The really painful examples of this in relation to grime would be painful no matter what music they were applied to I suspect.

but are any of these vids any good?! nope!

you may be right but why so?

grime can be tremendously exciting, but it's complete lack of ambition is a real downer. the american press (me included) has a real way of making it seem far more happening than it is.

is it not fundamentally incapable of that without becoming something else or being labelled as something else? when artists renowned for being Grime lynchpins do this it's suddenly no longer Grime it seems (see the last So Solid Crew album, Dizzee and the current Rolldeep and Kano ones for the obv. examples).

Dillinja was almost getting into the top 40 as recently as eighteen months ago! Crazy.

there was a d-bridge interview in knowledge recently where he said he had gone back into hmv and they had re-racked the drum & bass section after a long absence and my first thought was "oh dear, does grime even have a section?"

dizzee rascal - stocked in rap (doesn't seem like it's selling)

streets, wiley, so solid, etc - stocked in dance (also aren't selling, except the streets, which is selling so well that even the hip highschoolers who work at the coffeshop are down with it)

on the stereo when i last walked in the shop: the new dj fresh mix (dnb still selling strong in the land of xtreme sports!)

dizee had some lyrically whimisical tracks on his first album, and they were still grime(y). when grime artists like roll deep or kano try to do romantic songs, it comes off as vapid sugary slush - so no thank you.

because the genre isnt about those qualities at all. when i read bloggers talking about how some stupid kid in a dvd had 'the saddest expression in the world' and geting all dewey eyed about some pirate session where the MCs were talking about 'reaching for the tool' or whatever, it just sounds paradoxically wrong, and more than a little bit silly if i may be honest. its like liberal art critics seeing the cruddiest shit and waxing embarasingly poetic about every tiny little crevice of beauty in its every millimetre. it sounds a tad cringey.

the thing about channel u vids, well most of them, is that theyre just like grime records - no production values, abysmal quality, but full of energy and some 'raw' talent lurking in there. theyre like the vid equivalent of demo-mp3s. not sure if this is a good thing.

ed rush & optical - funktion
dom & roland - can't punish me
hive - ultrasonic sound (dillinja remix)
stakka & skynets - side effects VIP
bad company - planet dust
moving fusion - thunderball
danny c - the mexican
dj marky & xrs - LK remix
high contrast - return to forever
hold tight - 925
peshay - got me burning
j majik vs hatiras - spaced invader
decorum - weapon (contrax remix)
john b - blue eyeshadow
total science - nosher (baron remix)
pendulum - trail of sevens
dj fresh - temple of doom
optimus prime - amen slag
dillinja - grimey
mampi swift - rebirth

i could go on for a while ... i'm missing a nu-photek track (prob a special forces track would be best, or maybe "we got heat") ... missing other stuff too, like more vocal tracks ...

I suddenly really want to hear a clownstep remix of Medicine 8's 'Mystery Murdered'.

I don't suppose anybody makes tracks like 'Babylon' by Splash anymore do they?

Jump Up/"Darkside"

01. Ludacris - "Roll Out (Dylan Remix)"
02. Rawhill Cru - "Mo' Fire (BC UK Remix)"
03. Dillinja feat. MC Skibadee - "Twist 'Em Out"
04. DJ Fresh - "Dead Man Walking"
05. Distorted Minds - "The Warriors"
06. Ram Trilogy - "Screamer"
07. BC UK - "Snowcat"
08. Pendulum - "Vault"
09. Tech Itch feat. MC Jakes - "The Rising"
10. Mason feat. MC Armani Reign - "Ruff, Rugged, & Raw"
11. Manix - "Hardcore Junglism (Total Science Remix)"
12. Origin Unknown feat. Dynamite MC - "Hotness"

Liquid/Jazz/Samba Magical

01. DJ Marky & XRS feat. Stamina MC - "LK (Carolina Carol Bela)"
02. DJ Die - "Autumn (Commix Remix)"
03. Shy FX & T-Power - "Shake Ur Body"
04. Peshay - "Jammin"
05. DJ Fresh - "All That Jazz"
06. High Contrast - "Lovesick"
07. Funk & Flex - "Walk By Faith"
08. D-Brige - "China Blue"
09. London Elektricity feat. Robert Owens - "In My Dreams (Total Science Remix)"
10. Seba & Lenk feat. Robert Manos - "Every Man For Himself"
11. Addiction & Carilito - "Supergrass"
12. Jahiem - "Put That Woman First (Calibre Remix)"

Dub & Bass

01. Digital - "Champion Bubbler"
02. Calibre & High Contrast - "Mr. Majestik"
03. Amit - "Gatecrasher"
04. Breakage - "So Mars"
05. Digital - "Ras 78"
06. Visionary - "No. 9 Dub"
07. Equinox - "Ital Tuff Lion Head"
08. Digital - "Gateman"
09. Amit - "Motherland"
10. Juju - "Thunder"
11. Breakage - "Bring Back (Remix)"
12. Calibre - "Can't Stop This Fire"

Edits/Drumfunk

01. Fracture & Neptune - "Colemanism"
02. John B - "Broken Language (Exile Mix)"
03. Southstar & Miracle - "Omega Amen"
04. Paradox - "A Certain Sound"
05. Senses - "Darker Self"
06. Klute - "Perceptron (Fanu Remix)"
07. Fracture & Neptune - "Worm Science"
08. Seba & Paradox - "You Didn't See It, Did You?"
09. Miraculous - "Can't Hold Back"
10. Intext Systems - "Drum Track 2"
11. Equinox - "Acid Rain (Breakage Remix)"
12. 0=0 - "Soul Hunter Testifies

Weirdbeat

01. Sileni - "Twitchy Droid Leg"
02. Exile - "Cut By Plastic"
03. Squarepusher - "Venus No. 17"
04. Paradox - "I Get A Kickback"
05. Ed Rush & Optical - "Funktion"
06. Hidden Agenda - "Fish Eggs"
07. Eight Miles High - ""Flowchart
08. Something Else - "Ploosh (Morgan Packard Remix)"
09. Tundra - "Sprouts (Omni Trio Remix)"
10. Ezekiel Honig - "Love Sessions (Graphic Remix)"
11. Actual Proof - "Maybe We'll Stay (Sileni Remix)"

whereas it surprises me how much very good grime i've accumulated solely through mp3s by now. i just feel like the vocals give it an extra key dimension. with jungle you are mostly listening to instrumentals at the end of the day. instrumentals with variations on the same drum break.

2-step was probably better than both grime and jungle though. more interesting, sexy, compelling both rhythmically and vocally.

of course i am probably an old man.

of course i am probably an old man.

Lexis - Criminal Elements (but heaps of other stuff too; search Branch of Knowledge, which is my favourite post-98 d&b artist album)
Teebee - Black Rain
E-Z Rollers - RS 2000 (Vocal Mix)
Cyba Space - Life (Dom & Roland Mix)
Hatiras v J. Majik - Spaced Invader
Total Science - It's Not Over
Dom & Roland - Can't Punish Me
J. Majik - Solarize (basically a chip off the "Spaced Invader" block)
Fresh & Vegus - Otto's Way (this was either late 98 or early 99 I think)
Klute - Leo 9
High Contrast - Return of Forever
Dillinja - Thugged Out Bitch
Kosheen - Hide U (you may laugh, but this was a massive massive scene tune when it was released in its original dub form (subsequently called the Decoder & Substance remix I think) and would send everyone absolutely crazy at d&b nights. Obviously overplayed to death now...)
That awesome D&B bootleg of Mel B's "I Want You Back" whose origin is unknown to me and which is now probably lost forever - I want it so badly!

I'll defer to Jess on the Inperspective/Breakage etc. stuff, but I will say that I absolutely adore the DJ Clever Troubled Waters mix (which is actually halfway between Inperspective stuff and Lexis, although funnily enough Lexis himself seems to have disappeared in the last four years or so) - it would have been in my top ten for last year had I heard it in time.

Vahid you have that J Majik 7 mix don't you? "Amen Slag" is good yeah...

1) 45 Thieves "Release (Victor Paul Mix)"
2) Debaser "Clash Night"
3) DJ C Feat Shinehead "Billy Jungle"
4) DJ K "Kill Or Be Killed"
5) Soundmurderer "Call Da Police"
6) Capleton "Conscience a Heng Dem (Aaron Spectre Remix)"
7) 0=0 "Soda 411"
8) Demolition Man "The Children (Debaser Mix)"
9) Congo Natty Feat Michael Prophet "Your Love"
10) Jacky Murda & R Cola "Jungle Teng (Pecos Version)"

He was always only ever accidentally great anyway, I think. "Your Sound" was ace but I can't think of any other really awesome early tunes he did, and then that later miniature rennaissance of intense french d&b seemed to be more about catching the right wave.

theres more space for personality now (although if you can tell half the guys doing it now apart from one another, youre a cleverer man than i), but most of these guys are still best as pirate/rave MCs, and not much else. if grime had more of a live outlet, and more of a following, this wouldnt be a prob, but as theyre trying to make it like hip hop and follow dizzee's lead into being an 'artist', it looks like its going to lead to some frustration. not everyone here IS an artist, i dont think even wiley is, truth be told. hes just a genius producer and great radio MC.

hold on, what do you mean they make beats on their playstations? is that why they sound like that? OMG WTF?!?!!! i wish this board had an edit facility.

oh, and i'm not a very nice man btw. i'm fucking horrible, ask anyone.

I think it is hugely overrated.

Seriously, aren't 3 quarters of Ruff Sqwad's tracks, and ALL of Target's tracks, ornate and romantic? And what's not romantic about passionate desire for fame, wealth and glory? Reynolds even called the Hot Boys Romantics, but I guess with a capital R it's a different deal, an -ism.

aw, so sweet of you to say, darling!

Fizzle don't undermine yourself!

Look I sympathise with a lot of what you're saying - there's a reason I tend to love all the tracks that sound like garage throwbacks (eg. the original "Hype Hype") and I still love the old MC stuff like Gods Gift on "Mic Tribute" etc. etc. And I don't really want to see grime go hip hop either. But I think it's massively mistaken to assume that it's one or the other, either proto-grime shouting over "Pow" beats or slick US hip hop homages.

Funny that Keith brought up Target here - who alongside Dizzy helped invent romantic grime with stuff like the remix of "Pick Yourself Up" (which I've now not heard for over two years tragically) - 'cos the thing that makes Aim High 2 so special to me is how it escapes that either/or trap so easily. Everything is well-produced but not slick and anonymous and the MCs are at the top of their game - meaningful but hyperactice and vibey all at once. I mentioned Donae'o's "Bark" upthread partly because it is kinda whimsical, but also because it seems to capture that secrete history of uptempo ravey grime that includes stuff like "Course Bruv" and "Dem Lots Ere Now" and "R.U.F.F.", stretching right through to stuff like "When I'm Ere".

i agree that when its not hyper and speedy, it doesnt have to mean its hiphop, but it can still pass for uk hip hop when its like that, often. i mean, i heard that slew dem crew love song they played on logans show the other month/week, and what was great about it was that before playing it, they said its not a blatant sell out love tune, then they played it and it was some typical sappy r&b-hip hop ballad!

xxxxxxpost, when i say amateur, i dont necessarily mean amateurish sonic quality, i mean the actual musical content, the 'i have never ever ever played a keyboard in my life before this tune' feel. then again, with a tune like ruff squads anna, if i hear the instrumental, i find it kinda interesting, even in spite of this, but when its got vocals on it, i find it faintly ridiculous. maybe i was a bit hard on the idea of grime not being good at 'songs' - i mean, whats a 'song'? just cos i think half of them are crap, doesnt mean theyre not songs does it? something just seems to get lost often in the case of grime MCs between a pirate studio and a recording studio. its like that 'electricity' isnt there or something. and then even when it is, the lyrics seem like they were better as ephemeral material.

anyway, countdown riddim is hilarious.

I don't tend to like many of the attempts at sappy r&b hip hop ballads either actually, mainly 'cos I do like the US ones and these sound like really subpar versions of them. Actually I'd happy to live without grime freestyling over US hip hop beats almost entirely.

In terms of new tunes I'm probably way behind a lot of other people around here cos I don't have good access to radio or mixtapes. I mean apart from Aim High 2 where I love every track except Godzilla's (which actually does slot into the actual bad stereotype of sensitive reflective grime you've constructed) probably most of the stuff I've been listening to is from last year - the Newham Generals singles, Bruza's Terra Danjah-produced singles, Fire Camp, JME, Skepta's "Private Caller 2"... I'm hoping to correct this by ordering some more mixtapes - which site do non-UK people find works well?

does he trigger Amen loops in Reason using his teeth?

xpost - also, does armed jack wank off his sp1200 at raves?

who rembembers grime

dizzee rascal

The first two posts aren't really from 2001, are they?

I still listen to grime, like 2002/2003 grime. It's amazing

http://www.beatport.com/track/kingmob-vip-original-mix/3470534

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDCtqk3nRic

Given that the Rinse.fm livestream is essentially the only thing in my itunes right now, yes, I do remember grime. Living in the UK has acclimatised me to it a bit, and now I kind of regret sleeping on it as much as I have. Why the other night I had a dream where I was DJing and playing all this amazing grime, and then after waking up in the dream started complaining about why I can't find grime that sounds that good in waking life.