REM: Classic or dud?

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I've only very recently picked up a few REM albums and really have no sentimental attachment. The first few albums still sound pretty fresh, I think, although I can't put my finger on what's really interesting about them. My favourite at the moment is Up; there's clearly a fair amount of filler but Suspicion, Sad Professor, Daysleeper and Lotus still affect me, however underwritten they might be.

As opposed to apparently every critic around the world, I'm quite disappointed by Reveal. The last thing we need now is another apathetic 'Hey, everything will be alright' album. The tunes are pretty enough but I can't hear anything with the passion of Murmur or Lifes Rich Pageant. Maybe the computers just took it out of them a little.

― John Davey, Monday, 28 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

one month passes...

I too was in college in the 80's and at that time, REM was without a doubt my favourite band. Document made me think they were going the way of U2, but the band remained on my "buy without hearing list". I can't even remember which was my last. It was the one with Texarkana on it. Anyway, there are two REMs. All albums after LRP just aren't any good even though good songs can be found there. Murmer, Reckoning, Reconstruction and LRP are about as good of a 4-set as you will find in history,IMHO. The simplicity should be acclaimed, not criticized. I suppose for me, the deathblow was Buck's experiments with the mandolin. When the guitar left, so did I, and I haven't heared a reason to go back.

― Paul M Lafleur, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

two weeks pass...

Stop press. I am very sceptical of any REM after about 1991. Imagine my surprise to find myself thinking: cor - this Reveal record is pretty good!

― the pinefox, Saturday, 21 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

pinefox - Is Reveal the first record you like of the zero decade? Except Lloyd Cole of course who is doing quite well on his latest actually!

― alex in mainhattan, Sunday, 22 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't want to overrate Reveal. It's not that great - just a slightly pleasant surprise.

Records I like in the zero decade include: Lloyd, The Negatives; 6ths, Hyacinths & Thistles; Costello / Mutter, For The Stars; B&S, FYHCYWLAP. Of these, I think Lloyd's is the best. EC does what he does. 6ths and B&S are patchy by their authors' standards. I can't think of many others.

― the pinefox, Sunday, 22 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

three months pass...

Pinefox, I was the one who professed to enjoying R.E.M on a intellectual level, "chords and notes and stuff." I think what I mean is that they sound to me like a GM midi file: No matter the tempo or style, the band just plods along professionally, without any surprises or sudden jolts. They're just not very dynamic. ESPECIALLY Stipe. That said, the actual content of there songs can be quite good, and I really enjoy what I've heard of _Reveal_.

― Jack Redelfs, Monday, 22 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

five months pass...

Ugh. I am on of thsoe mid-30's people who luckily caught on to REM fairly early on (about '84). I don't recall them to be claiming punk/new wave/ post-pop/college/alterna....they were just a breath of fresh air when pop music wsa dominated by total shite.

Yeh, anything after 'document' or even 'lifes rich pageant' for that matter is supsect but ya kind of had o be there to understand the significance at the time.....

I but them at this time at of sentimentality

― Michael D, Sunday, 31 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

three years pass...

There are nowhere near enough "classic"s on this thread, so... CLASSIC!! No matter how terrible their new records get, they're still one of the best bands ever. How many great albums have they made? Ten?

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Saturday, 30 April 2005 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, it's no secret that I think they are classic and are still a pretty good band even though they seem to be in decline. I'm sure they will continue to write quality songs and play good live shows.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Saturday, 30 April 2005 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

classic, but they bore the shit out of me and always have.

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Saturday, 30 April 2005 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Haven't made an album that isn't really good yet!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 30 April 2005 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

classic, of course. but really, i'm only posting to point out that kris p.'s post from 2001 is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read on ILM.

xpost:
tim, i think that post could cut both ways...

― john'n'chicago, Saturday, 30 April 2005 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

If they had broken up after Hi-Fi I could be so much more unreserved in my fanship. Hard to believe THAT album is almost a decade old.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

i would stretch anthony's comment to UP and think they would've been fine. monster turned 10 and that record was thrilling to me as a high schooler.

still classic, even if i hardly ever take these discs off the shelf any more. i used to debate the merits of gardening at night with my trig teacher.

― blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Saturday, 30 April 2005 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I think that Reveal and Around The Sun are below average in terms of their back catalog, but still have some really great songs on them. I fault R.E.M. for making albums that are only half-good but I give lesser bands a lot of credit for making albums that only have two or three good songs. So grading on a curve really hurts them.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I think that when Michael Stipe when from being completely introverted to Courtney Loving it up, it was a real trap for the band's overall feel. Shiny Happy People seemed like such an aberration, and then Automatic was a slickly produced return to form of sorts, even if it opened the floodgates further. Monster didn't bother me as much as some folks, and I really like(d) New Adventures and Up. But Reveal was the first album that I found completely ridiculous and middle-agey, even New Age-y. Around the Sun I've never even heard.

I thought The Great Beyond was a lovely single, as was Imitation of Life (even Bad Day fits into this category), but those seem more like lucky accidents than an indication that they could record an entire album as consistent as those 15 years ago.

― blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:12 (twenty-one years ago)

And let's not underestimate the impact Bill Berry's departure had on the band's chemistry. He was more than just the ugly drummer; he wrote quite a few songs. Moreover, when you lose a drummer as solid as Berry, your band's gonna be awful slack in the rhythm department. That's how the remaining members justified their boring "electronic" direction to the press (all those gratuitous allusions to Eno, etc).

If "Hi-Fi" had ended with "Be Mine," it'd be classic REM, probably in my top four or five.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Reveal was definitely the heartbreaker for me, esp. since "Imitation Of Life" was the best song they'd made since frikkin' who knows. Stuck out like a silver thumb and made the rest of the shit seem downright willfully awful. Ending with Hi-Fi would have a) allowed them to maintain that we-four-are-REM beauty (R=4!) and made "Electrolite" their curtain call. "I'm not scared, I'm out of here"!

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Classic in the 80s, semi classic through the 90s, shit since 'Reveal'.

― I.M. (I.M.), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

They're definitely one of those bands where little flaws have become so crippling that it taints previous albums because I can see how little mistakes would evolve into tragedies. Stuff that would be forgivable if that's as far as they'd take it are now offensive.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

i've argued with matt perpetua elsewhere about this, but i agree with anthony here - i can't listen to automatic anymore because i think it's so poorly paced. i know there are folks who'd disagree, and i love "side 2" but it's just such a jarring side 1.

having missed the monster tour - which would've been awesome as a high schooler - i was equally thrilled to see them on the UP tour as a college senior. they were ecstatic and did their best to include some older stuff...that the crowd booed!

― blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

The warner bros. four-piece years are so tied up with my youth that I find it really hard to judge them critically - the idea of explaining what makes them 'good' is fucked because the appeal was so much less concrete at the time I memorized every melody (if not lyric). If I try to imagine how these albums come off to the unfamiliar I have to assume they're all patchwork nonsense. I'd probably throw Chronic thru Fables at an arty newbie as the early stuff has dance beats and Gehman-Litt haven't brought in the whole awkward arena element.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

PC Zeppelin really. Should have broke up when the drummer died.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

PC Zeppelin really

once they moved from dance clubs to theatres

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

It's as impossible to explain REM's allure to neophytes as it is to explain the Beatles. ("But they wrote really GOOD songs!")

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 30 April 2005 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

There are ways to explain them but they're zeitgeist-related and not necessarily flattering to the fan or enticing to the skeptical. Klosterman hit the nail on the head for me in Fargo Rock City when he said that REM was the kind of band that made you feel like part of a secret society of nice, beauty-appreciating PC people - you aren't a loser, you're BETTER than your high school for feeling like an outcast. Their commercial rise was a triumph for the good-intentioned who still wanted 'rock.' 'The acceptable edge of unacceptable stuff' as Buck put it. Milquetoast wafflage for people who had no need for melodic middle ground.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd only qualify it by adding that for the mainstream audience that got Out of Time, Automatic, and Monster the milquetoast wafflage was just enough; while for a lot of us REM was an effective gateway drug to Husker Du, the Mats, Wire, etc.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 30 April 2005 20:31 (twenty-one years ago)

CLASSIC!!! - i sang 'how the west was won and what it got us' at karaoke the other night, NAILED it

― j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 30 April 2005 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Just made their best album in over a decade. (OK, I've said it before.)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 30 April 2005 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

"Milquetoast wafflage for people who had no need for melodic middle ground."

Middle ground between what and what?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 30 April 2005 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

"Klosterman hit the nail on the head for me in Fargo Rock City when he said that REM was the kind of band that made you feel like part of a secret society of nice, beauty-appreciating PC people - you aren't a loser, you're BETTER than your high school for feeling like an outcast. Their commercial rise was a triumph for the good-intentioned who still wanted 'rock.'"

May I say that this is just an utterly DIRE portrait of the people that like their music?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 30 April 2005 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Hard to make them any more than classic. However, their late 80s output is heavily overrated, while their late 90s/early 00s output is heavily underrated.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 30 April 2005 21:06 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread inspired this thread: REM Post-1990: POX

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 30 April 2005 21:09 (twenty-one years ago)

You people made me download Harbourcoat and I was so impressed I bought the first two albums (admitedlly Murmur was 49p and on cassette but thats not the point) but I really think that's enough for me now...

― elwisty (elwisty), Saturday, 30 April 2005 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

throw in 'chronic town' and you might be right

― j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 30 April 2005 23:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I think they actually took things up a notch with Fables of the Reconstruction, but the album sequence might not have been as good as the sequencing on the first two albums and the production wasn't as good.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 1 May 2005 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

ten months pass...

The categorisation of their early stuff as a nice safe return to Byrdsian jangle as opposed to for real noisy punk is wrong-headed. There's a definite post-punk/art rock thing going on there, from the Pylon/G04 influence beats and Buck's often ingenious guitar lines, where he made the most of his limitations. Bland, straightforward college rock or 60s throwback stuff it ain't.

The Klosterman thing is patronising, but it is true that REM had a certain arty liberal outsider appeal. They were a great band to be into when you're first discovering music. They and Nirvana were the first bands not in my parents' record collections I got into. Both were non-macho, arty rock bands and a great gateway drug into more esoteric pleasures.

So Classic! Despite the undeniable dudness of Reveal and Around the Bum.
(That said, Reveal had Beat A Drum, which is terrible on the album, but beautiful in its spare piano demo form).

― stew!, Tuesday, 14 March 2006 16:19 (twenty years ago)

C and D similtaneously. This is a bit like the Dylan issue, on a lesser scale. He just keeps churning out them albums regardless of whether it even approaches the greatness of his early stuff. REM probably peaked around Fables (xxpost), but to be honest I stopped buying their stuff in the early 90s.

― dr xo'skeleton, Tuesday, 14 March 2006 17:09 (twenty years ago)

ten months pass...

OH MY GOD i'M GOING TO ABANDON MY FAVOURITE INTERNET RADIO STATION JUST SO i CAN PUT THE OLD VINYL ON. STARTING WITH "WOLVES, LOWER"

― Lick The Strobelight Lollipops (Bimble...), Sunday, 28 January 2007 22:25 (nineteen years ago)

In which I graduate from You Tube to my own vinyl. Thanks. Love you.

― Lick The Strobelight Lollipops (Bimble...), Sunday, 28 January 2007 22:29 (nineteen years ago)

I miss Kris' posts.

― Sundar (sundar), Sunday, 28 January 2007 22:37 (nineteen years ago)

By the way, why did people make a point of the lyrics being buried or inaudible in the 80s? Even on Murmur, Stipe's voice is pretty dominant and clear in the mix. How hard is it to make out "Talk About the Passion" or "Laughing?"

― Sundar (sundar), Sunday, 28 January 2007 22:59 (nineteen years ago)

he's no Ric Ocasek, that's for sure!

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 28 January 2007 23:01 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno man, a lot of "Laughing" is pretty hard to make out, if the lyrics I just googled are correct. Many words are crystal clear but "Laocoon and her two sons" -- huh? Probably heard it 500 times but never picked up on "Laocoon", and I heard "sated view" but always figured it was actually something else. Maybe that was the problem.

― Mark (MarkR), Sunday, 28 January 2007 23:25 (nineteen years ago)

SUSPICION YOURSELF DONT get caught becaues I am an early REM junkie

― Lick The Strobelight Lollipops (Bimble...), Sunday, 28 January 2007 23:49 (nineteen years ago)

IVE STILL GOT MY FUCKING VINYL YOU BASTATRDS EARLY REM VINYL I

― Lick The Strobelight Lollipops (Bimble...), Sunday, 28 January 2007 23:50 (nineteen years ago)

gardenING aT NIGHT

― Lick The Strobelight Lollipops (Bimble...), Sunday, 28 January 2007 23:51 (nineteen years ago)

By the way, why did people make a point of the lyrics being buried or inaudible in the 80s? Even on Murmur, Stipe's voice is pretty dominant and clear in the mix

i don't think people were saying the words were inaudible; just indecipherable. stipe didn't really start enunciating until lifes rich pageant, a rumored concession to their label.

― Lawrence the Looter (Lawrence the Looter), Monday, 29 January 2007 00:00 (nineteen years ago)

i JUS TWANT TO DIE WHERE IS SOUTH CENTRAL RAIN ON YOU TUBE HAVE WE GOT ITYET?

― Lick The Strobelight Lollipops (Bimble...), Monday, 29 January 2007 00:21 (nineteen years ago)

He's not Ocasek, no, but I guess it's that early REM doesn't really seem that exceptional to me among rock bands in terms of lyrics being indecipherable. (Maybe they're exceptional in terms of the words not making sense.) I don't think I really make out every word of most rock songs (didn't know what even the pre-choruses of Def Leppard's "Armageddon It" were until recently; don't think I'll ever make out Led Zeppelin's "Carouselambra.") Even in a vaguely comparable idiom, a lot of Joy Division lyrics (e.g. "They Walked In Line") seem pretty muffled. The old REM sounds pretty par for the course to me, with some lyrics and most key lines and choruses pretty clear and some harder to make out.

― Sundar (sundar), Monday, 29 January 2007 00:43 (nineteen years ago)

Skipping 2499 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

no performance in that video

― A So-Called Pulitzer price winner (President Keyes), Friday, 14 June 2024 14:28 (two years ago)

i googled "rem songwriters hall of fame performance" and a recording by someone in the crowd that's on youtube came up

― karl...arlk...rlka...lkar..., Friday, 14 June 2024 14:36 (two years ago)

Same

― Billion Year Polyphonic Spree (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 14 June 2024 15:30 (two years ago)

sheesh what a song

― he/him hoo-hah (map), Friday, 14 June 2024 15:40 (two years ago)

so nice to see bill just floating along on the hand percussion

― he/him hoo-hah (map), Friday, 14 June 2024 15:41 (two years ago)

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8MbXgutzbT/?igsh=bjl3MDFkeXh2dnN6

― curmudgeon, Friday, 14 June 2024 15:52 (two years ago)

Stipe still sounds great

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 June 2024 15:54 (two years ago)

xp michael sounds amazing. lyrics still a rich enigma 40 years later. i loved how they described it as a "bumblebee" as in it shouldn't fly at all but it did.

― he/him hoo-hah (map), Friday, 14 June 2024 15:55 (two years ago)

the song gains something from the frailty of age. its shot through with the decrepitude of southern gothicism, so a patina of time and loss does it good

― karl...arlk...rlka...lkar..., Friday, 14 June 2024 16:01 (two years ago)

is that Clive Davis in the audience? That guy will never die.

― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 14 June 2024 16:01 (two years ago)

repeating from upthread for anyone who missed it: if you love this band or these people or the song "Losing My Religion" you should watch the Song Exploder episode on it. it's on Netflix and it's like 15 or 20 minutes long, as i recall? some great detail about the song, some great Bill Berry stuff and some of the love, respect, admiration and emotional resonance you get from that CBS interview.

― alpine static, Friday, 14 June 2024 16:11 (two years ago)

watching through the longer interview now :) love these guys

stipe is one of my favorite interviews ever, he's just so funny, would love to interview him myself one day

― ivy., Friday, 14 June 2024 16:34 (two years ago)

He has the most original timbre.

― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 14 June 2024 16:42 (two years ago)

Alex In NYC has a nice story on his blog
https://vassifer.blogs.com/alexinnyc/2024/06/busy-week.html

― Elvis Telecom, Saturday, 15 June 2024 07:32 (two years ago)

this long Mike Mills interview with ILM fav Rick Beato digs deeper than the CBS interview into the band's music, how it was made, and how they handled their business:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRfhX-XAIiY

― Brad C., Monday, 17 June 2024 00:57 (two years ago)

Great interview thx for posting

― that's not my post, Monday, 17 June 2024 04:17 (two years ago)

Yep, very good

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Monday, 17 June 2024 21:10 (two years ago)

three months pass...

Harris/Walz doing full court press for the Gen X/college rock vote by trotting out Michael Stipe in Athens, GA to sing "Wendell Gee" for the first time since 1985 https://t.co/Chyu35CDk0 pic.twitter.com/Gen6PMb1Tw
— Matt Sebastian (@mattsebastian) October 11, 2024

― bratwurst autumn (Eazy), Friday, 11 October 2024 23:16 (one year ago)

Not crying

― timellison, Friday, 11 October 2024 23:43 (one year ago)

Lol “My dad loves you”

― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Saturday, 12 October 2024 18:20 (one year ago)

two weeks pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ftacKGmn6Q

― timellison, Wednesday, 30 October 2024 22:04 (one year ago)

love it

― Muad'Doob (Moodles), Wednesday, 30 October 2024 22:13 (one year ago)

nine months pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKiS7QYDV4M

― Maresn3st, Thursday, 14 August 2025 18:31 (ten months ago)

two months pass...

I'm enjoying the hell out of the new Peter Ames Carlin biography. Apart from its excellent reporting, the book documents (heh) the band's changing finances as they ascended, and to me I can never read enough about publishing, touring, merch, royalties, and so on.

― The Luda of Suburbia (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 7 November 2025 16:54 (seven months ago)

I enjoyed it for the most part. Seems that he kind of runs out things to say as the book goes on. I still just love them so much.

― Blood On The Knobs, Friday, 7 November 2025 18:26 (seven months ago)

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