ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

what is with critics' burning desire to justify this dude's stuff -- its like theyre worried if they dare to say something against it the entire critical apparatus will disintegrate or they'll be consigned as contrarian trying-to-hards

too not to

Thats actually the best thing I've read re: that particular aspect of the Odd Future phenomenon.

― 'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?' (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:39 PM (49 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well of course -- it backs up your POV re: the worth of their music relative to the rest of the genre

what is with critics' burning desire to justify this dude's stuff

to justify the music or to justify his rape/homophobia stuff?

Man deej you are assuming an awful lot about what I think. I like his approach and I think he addresses it with a little less cringey hand-wringing than I've seen elsewhere. I'm not at all certain I agree with him though.

Tyler's beats are largely unsatisfying from a low-end perspective, at times giving off zero sub-bass or the tiniest of an 808 tinkle

nails why i don't dislike his beats, and can kind rationally see why they're good, but can't get into them or feel compelled to hear them

Is he a homophobe? Maybe, but at least he's familiar with the label (that already places him light years beyond most of his contemporaries where expressed awareness is concerned).

really? cf. 50's reaction to the mr. cee thing

Prodigy too

& believe it or not there are rappers who are not only aware of 'homophobica' but in fact dont use the word 'faggot'!

lol homophobica

Is he a homophobe? Maybe, but at least he's familiar with the label (that already places him light years beyond most of his contemporaries where expressed awareness is concerned).

I not get this at all. "Sure, he hates gay people for being gay...but what's important is that he knows that about himself"

TS: less offensive "homophobica" vs. "Jew's harp"

i actually don't care how tyler himself justifies or doesn't justify his lyrical content but i would like to see people like richard russell of xl, who has about as much liberal indie cred as anyone, talk about why he gets off on it

even if he's 100% sincere in saying "I'm not homophobic, I just think 'faggot' hits and hurts people," that's like oh, congratulations, you're not a bigot, you're just smart enough to intellectualize talking like one, good job shithead.

lex, do you have subwoofers at home? or does odd future actually get played in clubs? not trying to give you a hard time - sometimes i think about how weird it is that i listen to a lot of 'bass music' in contexts where i can't hear/feel sub frequencies at all.

xp

I gotta be straight about this too it always feels like there's a weird race dynamic in a (still) largely white critical establishment rushing to defend/explain/minimize/attribute-complexity-to homophobia when they run across it in rap -- weird condescending "this guy doesn't mean what you probably think he means" vibe -- there's loads of rap that manages not to be homophobic as D-40 points out, this sort of "oh here's what it 'means'" biz is like...no...this is a straight guy who calls people "faggot" IRL when he's mad at them...no real complex reading of that behavior is necessary imo, rap itself is not homophobic but this guy for sure is

also a big part of getting annoyed by OF's shtick where i don't necessarily care about it in older songs or from older rappers is that i'm just thinking, like, C'MON SON IT'S 2011 NOW. time to move beyond it.

the old "I know in my heart of hearts I'm not racist/homophobic, so that's why it's totally cool for me to use the n word/f word/etc. because I'm not saying it with hate" mentality is just the worst imo. like someone up above is able to see their true intention and is giving them a pass.

surfboard dudes : OFWGKTA :: bill magill : sabbath

― don't judge a book by its jpg (Edward III), Wednesday, May 11, 2011 3:06 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark

fuck does this mean? i love sabbath. who's bill magill.

oh wait you're cool.

seriously this album is ill. it took two listens and then "Radicals" just sounded like most colossal thing

jordan these are my speakers, dunno about subwoofer but they have decent bass. never heard odd future in a club.

the old "I know in my heart of hearts I'm not racist/homophobic, so that's why it's totally cool for me to use the n word/f word/etc. because I'm not saying it with hate" mentality is just the worst imo

otm and so frustrating to argue against - lots of people came with this on the guardian thread, they literally cannot see how "faggot" is a homophobic word regardless of whether you personally have any issues with gay people. i actually think it's okay for gay people to use it, but look how perez hilton got dragged over the coals by GLAAD when he used it to will.i.am. it's kind of like, if you're not actually gay-bashing or lynching someone, those people think you're not being homophobic/racist. i'm not sure what to do about them really.

also the rape jokes are much more "offensive" than just saying faggot and make me hope for some amazon of a woman to punch tyler in the mouth one day

what is with critics' burning desire to justify this dude's stuff -- its like theyre worried if they dare to say something against it the entire critical apparatus will disintegrate or they'll be consigned as contrarian trying-to-hards

― D40 (D-40), Wednesday, May 11, 2011 12:40 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is a ridiculously disingenuous question. i'm not a critic, but struggling to justify why you like what you like is universal, especially when the things you like create dissonance in you or in others. OF are therefore obviously going to provoke such reactions. we want to stand up for it because we like it and find value in it.

i remember listening to the stooges' funhouse when i was a kid and being both excited and embarrassed by the music, ashamed of my own excitement. i was excited because it was raw and powerful, lurid and crude, but i was repelled by these same things. the album seemed stupid and unwholesome, and i couldn't imagine playing it for my more serious-minded friends. i had to work to justify it to myself, to make room for the music and the way it made me feel.

if you consider yourself a smart and compassionate person without a prejudiced bone in your body and think the world should see you that way, you should act like one and act like one and ask for no exceptions, is how i break it down to an extent. (xpost)

but yeah, indefensible is indefensible, much as i like goblin, tyler and OF in general

act like one and TALK like one, i meant to say

This isn't an excuse for his hate speech, but it is an explanation for it.

oh good, another explanation for those who are still confused.

pretty weak post, esp. after cataloging all the inane and meaningless uses of a hateful word.

it always feels like there's a weird race dynamic in a (still) largely white critical establishment rushing to defend/explain/minimize/attribute-complexity-to homophobia when they run across it in rap -- weird condescending "this guy doesn't mean what you probably think he means" vibe

― Steven Tyler the Creator (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, May 11, 2011 12:52 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

OTM and worth breaking down

contenderizer the diff here is that 1) rich is someone whose writing i typically am really into & enjoy so im doing a bit of benefit-of-the-doubt that hes trying to be nice to fellow critics rather than actually actively liking this stuff like that, 2) its as much about my suspicion that anyone who weighs in on a huge crit discourse-reliant artist is doing so to a degree on the base assumption that it is worthwile, rather than w/ the healthy skepticism they often bring to the pop charts or say unapologetically genre archetype rap or R&B or whatever else

eminem said faggot a lot too, didn't he get the same defend/explain/minimize treatment from the critical establishment?

p much precisely the same - everything about this feels like déjà vu (well apart from the massive pop hits of course)

to digress, while you're here lex, ta very much for your first quarterly report. Find that I'm shockingly up to date in the albums department but new to about 80% of your tracks choices. Working my way through now.

:)

eminem said faggot a lot too, didn't he get the same defend/explain/minimize treatment from the critical establishment?

yes - good point.

that's fair. honestly, i'm torn about my own motivations and values. i've got hundreds of OF tracks and have been listening to them for the better part of a year, but as some dude said, i DO consider myself "a smart and compassionate person," and hope the world will see me that way.

so why the fuck am i standing up for such obviously foul shit? when i frequently complain about the subtle misogyny and homophobia of other artists? i don't know, really, but there are lots of things i like (even love) about OF. even at their most unforgivable, they're often very funny. felt the same about eminem, fwiw.

i mean, how do you genuinely like something while also being repulsed by parts of it? how do you respect the emotions and values that motivate both parts of that equation?

that last was in response to deej:

its as much about my suspicion that anyone who weighs in on a huge crit discourse-reliant artist is doing so to a degree on the base assumption that it is worthwile, rather than w/ the healthy skepticism they often bring to the pop charts or say unapologetically genre archetype rap or R&B or whatever else

Pretty much compeltley on-board with contenderizer there, I'm strugging with those exact same thoughts. I love a lot of this stuff, even when I cringe at bits of it.

xp we did this on the Wagner thread a while back only Wagner's libretti don't actually say "I hate the Jews" in them so it was easier

wagner's banging libretti

If you've said dumb shit because you were young, ignorant and/or trying get a rise out of people, you can usually recognize when someone is doing likewise, or might be quicker to assume that's the case. I think rap gets more sympathy/pondering in regards to this more than most genres beats the lyrics are clearer and the jokes are better, on top of the condescending stuff already mentioned.

Well, we probably covered this on that other thread re: Wagner, but I think I approach it like other pieces of art. I mean, I enjoy reading the George R.R. Martin and Robert Jordan fantasy books, but I'm often horrified in regards to his treatment of female characters and sex in general. So I kind of mentally gloss over those bits and focus on the parts I do enjoy. Is that the best approach? Probably not.

I was just complaining about the lack of subwoofer action in tristan und isolde like, yesterday

If you've said dumb shit because you were young, ignorant and/or trying get a rise out of people, you can usually recognize when someone is doing likewise, or might be quicker to assume that's the case

...and also quicker to fetishise it. thought one of the most impt points nitsuh made in his piece was:

And the music world always defers to that angry-teenage-boy thing — it keeps telling that demographic they're more vital and important than everyone else. This is precisely what that demographic already believes and likes to hear confirmed.

this is what i object to far more than just tyler saying faggot or whatever, tbh. strikes me as remarkably uncritical and unself-aware on the music world's part.

totally, and I definitely didn't mean to suggest that it was good.

mommy said I was special, she hung my raps on the refrigerator

the music world always defers to that angry-teenage-boy thing — it keeps telling that demographic they're more vital and important than everyone else. This is precisely what that demographic already believes and likes to hear confirmed.

- n.a.

this is what i object to far more than just tyler saying faggot or whatever, tbh. strikes me as remarkably uncritical and unself-aware on the music world's part.

- lex

would say that the pop world often defers to "authentic" expressions of teenage (youthful) anything. so anger yes, and boyness yes, but also idealistic romance and hormonal lust, the novelty of emotion and girlness in countless forms. not sure it's so uncritical or unself-aware, though. naive teen energy and enthusiasm are the engines of pop, more or less.

to digress, while you're here lex, ta very much for your first quarterly report. Find that I'm shockingly up to date in the albums department but new to about 80% of your tracks choices. Working my way through now.

link?!

^^

on ze tumblr

http://alexmacpherson.tumblr.com/post/5157484245/q1-report-2011-part-two-tracks
http://alexmacpherson.tumblr.com/post/5068549266/q1-report-2011-part-one-albums

contenderizer, i think expressions of female adolescence tend to sell records, but rarely get taken seriously (by either critics or in the wider culture), whereas expressions of male adolescence sometimes sell (see: action blockbusters) and sometimes don't, but if not always taken as seriously as OF, definitely aren't routinely dismissed or denigrated in the way that, say, hilary duff would have been.