ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

imo the argument deej should make here is: yes, innovation is relative to the existing scene at the time and not absolute, so advancing a scene or a certain sensibility/orthodoxy forward by introducing/reappropriating new elements is driving shit 'forwards'. however critics, the key topic of all music criticism, act like they're championing innovation in general but are actually only paying attention to innovation w/in certain scenes/sensibilities w/e.

as a lot of critics struggle w/ the notion that they are not being open to shit which is unprivileged, they can generally be convinced by critics like deej or lex or w/e to recognise these talents & rewrite the histories accordingly, at which point deej's eyes will moisten as the jacka finally gets overdue acclaim & whiney g weingarten will fart something about late passes

basically all i wanna know is how all this affects ilx's mythology

Check this out you guys - he only mentions "faggots" nine times, compared with ten for "lakes"
http://www.thefader.com/2011/05/10/by-the-numbers-tyler-the-creators-goblin/

― Number None, Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:53 PM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark

cool, now name all the rap albums that have come out lately that use that work 10 times or more

work=word

Geto Boys to threa... oh wait

It was posted in jest some dude

ha ok, wasn't sure with the "lakes" thing

http://www.msu.edu/course/iah/211c/bellfy/temagami/Image759.gif

good one, markers

goblin is #3 and #18 on the itunes album charts

http://www.rap-up.com/2011/05/10/odd-futures-tyler-the-creator-arrested/

"Rather than a beep
Or a rude error message,
These words: "File not found."

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/tyler+the+creator

good one, markers

― some dude, Tuesday, May 10, 2011 7:53 PM (2 hours ago)

be nice!!!

maybe not tying d/n to author name on public board Ned?

tbh I totally just said "wait, [redacted] is [redacted]? BRB must go reread every thread I ever read."

lololol

still smarting from jenkins/jenkinson fuckwittity, but...

i went out this afternoon to pick up goblin deluxe. last time i ran out to buy a CD on day one was for kanye - not that long ago, really, death of the industry, etc. anyway, i figured i owed, cuz i've been downloading free shit off these guys for months. felt good to settle up, and the packaging is beautiful. wish they were using this cover for the vinyl, maybe i'd have held out.

listening to break it in, work out the wrinkles, still sounding great, hell of a lot better than the 192 rip i've been living with. only complaint i have at this point is that the flagship release comes from tyler himself, not from OFWGKTA. since this is gonna wind up introducing OF to a bunch of new fans, it might have been nice/smart to lead with a more colorful, varied and (come on) odd intro release.

Check this out you guys - he only mentions "faggots" nine times, compared with ten for "lakes"
http://www.thefader.com/2011/05/10/by-the-numbers-tyler-the-creators-goblin/

― Number None, Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:53 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

aw @:

Mike G: 0

http://www.startoftheline.com/images/mikeg.gif

kind of blowing my mind that it's been 8 months since rolling papers, feels like yesterday

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/15413-goblin/

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/5713/berneydidnotread.gif

[kidding, of course, scott. i was just waiting for a good time to post that gif]

it's a good gif

i, i, i dunno man. wanna call that whole debate horseshit. of course jenkins was an innovator, both as an instrumentalist and a music maker in general. this is true whether or not he invented all aspects of his sound and takes nothing away from anyone else. i love those who dig deep to shine light on those who've perhaps been unfairly overlooked in the rush to crown this or that new king, but hate the fact that it's so often predicated on senselessly trashing a strawman version of that king. innovation is cross-pollination and recontextualization as much as it is ex nihilo creation, and on that level, artists like jenkins deserve all the credit they receive, and more.

basically i LOATHE the argument that critical favorites are just weak, watered-down versions of some real-tru populist shit that's found in purer form at the grassroots level. i mean, it's often true on some level (when shorn of pejorative sneering), but it reeks of smug condescension. better to understand that all ideas come from somewhere, sure, but that origin points don't have a greater claim to legitimacy or authenticity than the other nodes an idea intersects with as it moves out into the world.

― always have time for the crystalline entity (contenderizer), Tuesday, May 10, 2011 10:25 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

no please, relegate those of us who try to cover actual major shifts as they happen to guys just shining light on the unfairly overlooked, as if music critics are anywhere on the map of actual innovation

innovation is cross-pollination and recontextualization as much as it is ex nihilo creation, and on that level, artists like jenkins deserve all the credit they receive, and more.

and i can say this about travis porter even more easily. your rhetoric here is concerned with tamping down on those who suggest that the current state of crit is concerned only with kingmaking artists w/in a certain milieu, afterwards coming up with 'innovative' justifications; you're simply trying to suggest that 'sometimes artists are overlooked'. the real state of things is, usually artists are overrated; jenkinson is 'innovative' for creating his own sound & so is basically any of 100 rappers i can think of from last year. freddie gibbs for exampel.

basically i think you're overly reverent of canonical perspectives on music history at the expense of accurately portraying the actual development of music

imo the argument deej should make here is: yes, innovation is relative to the existing scene at the time and not absolute, so advancing a scene or a certain sensibility/orthodoxy forward by introducing/reappropriating new elements is driving shit 'forwards'. however critics, the key topic of all music criticism, act like they're championing innovation in general but are actually only paying attention to innovation w/in certain scenes/sensibilities w/e.

as a lot of critics struggle w/ the notion that they are not being open to shit which is unprivileged, they can generally be convinced by critics like deej or lex or w/e to recognise these talents & rewrite the histories accordingly, at which point deej's eyes will moisten as the jacka finally gets overdue acclaim & whiney g weingarten will fart something about late passes

― ogmor, Tuesday, May 10, 2011 11:05 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

this post is otm & is what im saying at some level

fwiw i tend to be highly suspicious of the idea of ex nihilo creation -- there's a lot more at play in terms of the overall effect OF recontextualization & cross-pollination. i dont for one second think that odd future is any more innovative than, say, nht boyz, or travis porter

P-fork review seems laughably non-committal to me - like, stating what the record is up to without saying whether or not it's any good.

jenkins again...

i don't think that's it at all. i'm not upping any kind of canon in that argument. i'm just saying (as i've said ad nauseam elsewhere on this board) that i have no patience for people who insist that their deep expertise in a particular niche renders less expert voices incapable of commenting meaningfully on the more popular manifestations of that niche's contributions to pop. not saying that you're doing exactly that, btw.

your rhetoric here is concerned with tamping down on those who suggest that the current state of crit is concerned only with kingmaking artists w/in a certain milieu

would say that my rhetoric is concerned with tamping down on those who make a point of elevating the "authenticity" of their own perspective by snidely denigrating the artists and critics that get elevated in the hype cycle. not that there's any point in it. dick-measuring contests between pop pundits probably predate print.

goes to deej's "and i can say this about travis porter even more easily" x-post

dont for one second think that odd future is any more innovative than, say, nht boyz, or travis porter

me neither, though i'm more invested in OF and hadn't heard nht boyz til today

dude get the mixtape from last year and stop posting long boring posts

yeah, did that (and quiet, you)

i've admittedly only heard a track or two from each of the above groups but OF sounds way further removed from typical 'hip hop' than either of them imo -- which might not nec. make them innovative by default, but when i heard the first OF stuff i heard (domo) it sounded SO different; i don't think either of the groups deej mentioned are nearly as fresh, regardless of how good or non-typical they might be. i should mention that most of what makes OF so appealing to me personally is the production, i'm not really commenting on the emcee-ing here. OF to me is pioneering their own aesthetic entirely, whereas a lot of even the best producers that i listen to and enjoy are not so unique that i can't imagine anyone else coming up w/ the stuff they come up w/. obv. OF isn't the only hip hop group to ever do this, but they've done it on such a scale in such a short period of time that i think that's what grabs people right away, the fact that they sound more like a band with a very identifiable style rather than producer x + MC y

wait, how is 'fresh' = 'removed from hip hop'

this is fresh to ppl who didn't fuck with fondle em & anti pop consortium in the late 90s / early 00s

this shit isnt far removed from el-p's less groove oriented beats either, canox etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e84LOYFbf3o

FRESH for '02 ... you SUCKAAAAZ

i don't see any real commonality between antipop and odd future, downtempo vibe and basic antipopness aside

i'll gladly admit to not having listened to probably 1/8th of the hip hop you have, but i guess my main point is that i'd never heard a record that sounded the slightest bit like rolling papers the first time i heard it -- and while that tape isn't my fav. OF release, just the first i heard, it inspired me musically in a way most hip hop doesn't, even though i love the stuff. i'd imagine part of the reason for their popularity other than the hilarious rape jokes is that other people have had this reaction?

not trying to get into a who knows more about hip hop thing here, you win. but i have listened to el-p and stuff like that, sure, and just because the previous generation of backpacker dudes were also doing something different doesn't mean OF isn't.

plus, you know, ten years is a long time

i'll gladly admit to not having listened to probably 1/8th of the hip hop you have, but i guess my main point is that i'd never heard a record that sounded the slightest bit like rolling papers the first time i heard it -- and while that tape isn't my fav. OF release, just the first i heard, it inspired me musically in a way most hip hop doesn't, even though i love the stuff. i'd imagine part of the reason for their popularity other than the hilarious rape jokes is that other people have had this reaction?

not trying to get into a who knows more about hip hop thing here, you win. but i have listened to el-p and stuff like that, sure, and just because the previous generation of backpacker dudes were also doing something different doesn't mean OF isn't.

― sleepingbag, Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:50 AM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think OF is doing something 'different,' i just think its a lot more marginal than you do, and that the values you & others who its resonating with bring to bear on this music are just *different* from those who might prefer nht or travis porter, & certainly arent any more correct or insightful

nor less so, and that's the point

im not trying to brag about knowing stuff here at all ... i dont think there's anything wrong w/ liking odd future for that production style, although it doesnt resonate particularly with me. i do think there's something goofy about the way calling back to a certain style of millenial indie rap is more acceptable for the broader critical world than travis porter's amalgamation of the past 5 years of southern rap or nht boyz' gangster/snap rediscovery of 80s hip hop

nor less so, and that's the point

― always have time for the crystalline entity (contenderizer), Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:52 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

how is that the point? nht boyz arent on the cover of billboard

im going to see aesop rock next week btw -- still like him a lot more than this stuff

word, fair enough, i don't really have anything i'd like to internet argue about here. just saying that i think OF serves a purpose, prolly the same way those other cats you mentioned do.

nht boyz arent on the cover of billboard

no, but that doesn't make them any more valid than artists who are. i love lots of entirely marginal music, much more marginal than nht boyz or w/e, but i don't have a chip on my shoulder abt its importance relative to shit that does get the pitchfork seal of approval. it's not the championing of worthy underdogs i object to - that part is cool as hell - it's the condescension that goes w it.

i do think there's something goofy about the way calling back to a certain style of millenial indie rap is more acceptable for the broader critical world than travis porter's amalgamation of the past 5 years of southern rap or nht boyz' gangster/snap rediscovery of 80s hip hop

i mean, why? i'm cool with upping what you love, but like i said, get grossed out by the combativeness of this stance. like other people are somehow goofy for not appreciating the less obvious shit you dig, wtf?

neat rhetorical trick where it becomes about me favoring something 'less obvious' as if this is a hipper-than-thou pose

its not goofy that they appreciate it, whats goofy is that they try to maintain some kind of mythic idea of 'innovation' that somehow eludes the other artists we're talking about