★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

i want to dig into the rest of what youve posted but im at work & it will take some time -- hopefully ill get to it this evening but im not sure we're arguing what each other thinks were arguing

hahaha I just started reading Lex's piece and had no idea he quoted me re: Kandi

Having now read Lex's piece the only thing I take issue with is the "Only a fool..." line, mostly because it's unnecessarily alienating to the people the piece is allegedly pitched towards; people who've read the hype about The Weeknd. Nothing else in the piece is particularly objectionable.

ok a quick response to lamp, if i get what you're saying u are concerned w/ the 'indie'-centricity of what im saying -- i think tim addressed this but fwiw these values of 'worthiness' are really not limited to indie as a form & are something i argue w/ say hip hop heads or R&B heads about all the time -- that the priveleging of certain aesthetic maneauvers is a cross-genre phenomenon & has a lot of complicated ins & outs that are complicated by both racial & class lines. a lot of my tendencies in taste operate along the lines that 'dumb' music or simple non-'weird' music tends to be misunderstood by many of my well-educated peers (& this crosses racial/ethnic lines, although is complicated by them)

also how the hell can you define my work overall by a "negative agenda" given that i write positively about music i love at least 3/4 of the time?! but if you want pollyanna shit you can look elsewhere, b/c i do think that the music industry (by which i include the press and critical consensus) i often deeply rotten, and don't see why i shouldn't point this out

― lex pretend, Friday, April 1, 2011 12:32 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

lex you have to understand that a lot of the characterizations of you on this thread are based less on that one article or your freelancing output and more on your 5-6(?) years on ILM promoting the most persistently singleminded and exclusionary musical worldview of probably any poster besides Geir. obviously you're comfortable with your posting style and opinions and are prepared to tirelessly defend them for another x years, but please don't act shocked and disappointed when people see you the way you've conditioned them to see you over thousands and thousands of posts.

L O L

http://truantsblog.com/?p=10724

As much praise as both records received, it didn’t take too long before R&B skeptics and bitter souls started to tore these records apart for not living up to their definition of the genre. Both mixtapes have a darker layer to them than most contemporary R&B and what have you songs.

The youngins surely have a long way to go until delivering record like 12 Dreams but then again, singers like R.Kelly are at least thirty years of practice, ten lawsuits and millions of dollars ahead of them.

Frank Ocean kills it on aforementioned “Novocane” and “American Wedding”, and even samples MGMT’s “Electric Feel” (all tracks are produced by himself)

record like 12 pumps

As much praise as both records received, it didn’t take too long before R&B skeptics and bitter souls started to tore these records apart for not living up to their definition of the genre.

stack the deck much

Real quick: One of the reasons I wrote a column about this was seeing a few people (mostly on Twitter, not here) asking stuff like "why would anyone listen to Weeknd when it just sounds like bad INSERT R&B ARTIST," and in those few cases I think there is something they're not getting; they're hearing the group spend maybe half of its energy living up to a standard of "good r&b" and consider the other half boring/wasted/terrible, instead of noticing that the other half is doing specific stuff that's good and valuable to ... someone else. Which is totally fine: They don't have to absorb or relate to that sensibility if they don't feel like it! The things I'm really interested in are (a) denying that it's there (hence my broken-record "there are sonic reasons this appeals to X audience"), and (b) the fact that, right now, it feels very supportable and legitimate to take a stance where you're like "I don't need to understand anything about that boring stupid oppressive sensibility," in a way that would have been harder to pull off at various points in the past. (Which is why I brought up 80s/90s punk dudes, who could successfully and compellingly strike "I don't need to understand that boring stupid oppressive sensibility" poses about the pop charts.)

I'm still annoyed at the spelling of their group name.

Fuck 'em.

I think the above is right nabisco, but the question remains, "what is this music actually doing that is different?" (and i'm not saying that expecting the answer to be "nothing") - because a lot of the responses to the album I read praise aspects of the music that actually do seem like fairly regular qualities of R&B. I can understand why a person might like the Weeknd and dislike Trey Songz/Jeremih/etc but the difference between them (at least at the more atmospheric end of the latter group) is more subtle than it's mostly being presented. And when lots of people are saying they get an emotional resonance from the Weeknd that they don't or can't get from regular R&B, it's difficult not to conclude that a good deal of that is due to how those people perceive R&B, how they perceive whatever category they place the Weeknd in, why it is that they respond to the cues they do respond to.

I'm a broken record too at this point but my basic point is that this either/or approach of "either this music is entirely a bourdieu phenomenon or there's something in the music that is real and resonates with its particular audience" constructs a false dichotomy where the sounds we respond to have nothing to do with the social structures of taste in our head and vice versa, whereas in truth each creates and reinforces the other.

Re hating: I don't object to hate in music crit, I'm just no good at it myself, or haven't been inclined to express it for a long time. I tend to think the capacity to froth and rage as a critic is the flipside of being so absolutely committed to a particular idea of music that you'd defend that idea even if meant all other ideas died. Zeal, basically.

I just don't feel that passionately committed to any one idea of music such that I could write like that. The closest thing would be the way in which sometimes I feel like my ideas on 2-step and funky are like a representative of all my other ideas about anything (musically obv) - and surprise surprise that is where I'm most polemical (probably to lex's chagrin if anything).

Reasonableness in music criticism is less about reasonableness per se, I think, and more about that sense of "well, I hold all of these contradictory ideas about music in my head, sometimes I feel like jaxon and sometimes I feel like lex and sometimes I feel like deej and sometimes I feel like etc.etc." and trying to understand how all of these modes of listening are negotiated. So, while I'm not particularly motivated to listen to the Weeknd more than I already have, it still interests me to think about the issue of how they (and their audience) negotiate these conflicting modes of listening as well.

tim, what you're missing is there are people, like myself, who actually like both the weeknd and regular r&b.

ha i dont think hes talking about u tho, and you havent really said much beyond expressing your interest in what you think it does well, (i guess ambiance?) I mean, Rev likes it too iirc.

And my initial responses were in reaction to yours, just explaining where i thought it fell short compared to lots of stuff we agree on. But there's really not much else to say after we've presented our preferences -- the problems only come in when ppl start explaining their attraction to it in ways that strike me as lacking the listening experience you have or that seem to shortchange a lot of what other R&B does

tbf rev is the founder of a thread called itt: kinda out there, maybe kinda experimental, maybe kinda pretentious modern r&b -- in a way The Weeknd is just the latest in a long line of acts that strikes a chord w/ R&B fans who like hearing a something a little off-center from the genre's norms. and that's totally OK imo, most of the things being discussed in this thread are pretty specific to The Weeknd's music and/or press coverage that isn't true of most of the acts talked about in rev's thread.

ya, i started this thread lo-fi or outsider soul & funk and a ton of other experimental r'n'b threads. this one wasn't anything diff i guess. i know people have said this album is hookless, but most of my favorite albums *seemed* hookless at first. they take a while to sink in. i can def hum along to almost all the songs on this. i really like his melodies. i like the atmosphere. i like his voice. i could give a shit about the beachhouse samples because i still haven't heard beach house. i dig the happy house sample. that one def made me smile a ton when i first heard it. i dunno. like i said in the other thread, i've listened to nothign but r'n'b for 2 weeks straight and i def have a greater appreciation for what's out there right now (didnt' shy away from that stuff because it was r'n'b, just don't listen to modern music all that much), but it doesn't lessen what i feel for this record. different strokes. nbd

some ideas i have:

- the weeknd are essentially (or mb formally) r&b
- they are using the dissonance created by introducing aesthetic tropes from 'indie' or 'chillwave' to both comment on r&b & create a specific emotional range or atmosphere
- this is not unique or really weird
- this does not mean that there are no other ways of using the genre to occupy the same emotional range
- nor does it devalue other artists working w/in the genre
- the emotional qualities that 'chillwave' has, the aesthetic shorthand its developed, is a p natural one to pick up on
- if one of your primary goals is to portray a kind of hollowness or spiritual poverty or ennui undergirding your own life, it can be useful to use an 'outside' aesthetic language to make that point
- some audiences will only respond to the aesthetic language theyre familiar w/
- this isnt really a 'bad' thing
- none of this means u have to like the weeknd or think they are successful or w/e

I don't dislike the weeknd actually jaxon! And what seems typical of a large portion of an audience is never true of an entire audience. But nor have I simply imagined the preponderance of responses I described upthread.

It does seem a lamentable quality of ilm discussions that people find intolerable references to experiences of music that don't match their own.

2) the problem most ppl in this thread have isnt with an 'indie version' its an indie version that we think isnt v good -- like, why not make something that succeeds on both indie & R&B terms

hey deej, serious post this time, from what I read of your stuff on this thread, you've mostly just given these sort of personal pref value judgments - but you haven't really explained (maybe you have?) what exactly about the weeknd doesn't do it for you. afaict you just think they sound 'generic' but what does that mean? I think I'd better be able to understand your position if it was a little bit more staked out.

Umm that creep video upthread, despite being amazing to look at, sounded exactly like Salem removing the weeknd. Still enjoyed it though.

Remixing, not removing. Stupid phone

hey deej, serious post this time, from what I read of your stuff on this thread, you've mostly just given these sort of personal pref value judgments - but you haven't really explained (maybe you have?) what exactly about the weeknd doesn't do it for you. afaict you just think they sound 'generic' but what does that mean? I think I'd better be able to understand your position if it was a little bit more staked out.

― dayo, Saturday, April 2, 2011 12:37 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★
★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★
★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★
(starting w/ last para)
★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

not to be a dick but i think ive explained why this stuff doesnt work for me thru-out this thread

ok afaict you don't like it because it sounds generic and not "v novel and interesting"

what does that mean?

It does seem a lamentable quality of ilm discussions that people find intolerable references to experiences of music that don't match their own.

ok genuine lol

ok afaict you don't like it because it sounds generic and not "v novel and interesting"

what does that mean?

― dayo, Saturday, April 2, 2011 1:04 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

... are you reading what i linked? i said a lot moer than that...?

jesus the posts he just linked to have like 400 words of pretty descriptive feedback about the actual sound of the songs, you really gonna keep pulling teeth (xpost)

lesson here is if you like The Weeknd all you gotta say is ~~~i just dig the vibe why overthink it~~~ but if you don't the burden of proof is on you to write a fucken novella about why

lol I've put myself out there and written stuff about what I like about this and why I think it works - I just think I'd like a firmer outlaying of deej's stance other than "there are these sounds effects" + "I don't like those sound effects"

like one reason you give for not liking it is that "it's a slow jam + vocals are filtered" but it's not apparent to me what inherent contradictions that has? and terms like "generic" and "anonymous" are pretty loaded in their own right and embody a lot of listener bias in them, that's why I'm "pulling teeth" since it seems deej is so invested in this argument

also, I'll cop to not reading the last paragraph of the last post you linked to, which does contain some concrete reaction, tnx

BTW thought the Lamp summary of positions above was pretty good. Separate question is whether this stuff is "worth thinking about" or not. I know it can be somewhat tiresome to feel like you're constantly looking over your shoulder to explain and justify your taste when all you want to do is be part of the just chill bro brigade. Whereas I have OCD w/r/t these issues whether I love the music or dislike it or am indifferent (nb. Gayngs was top 20 of 2010 for me, much to lex's disgust).

this is weird, cuz i usually agree w/ jaxon about like 90% of stuff, but i dont really like this. the first track the vocals are so heavily layered & echoed that I dont really 'feel' it & it makes me all Lex-ish wishing the performance was there, because the song is **aite** but not really much more than a slow jam. but whats a slow jam where the vocals are so filtered? All i can imagine explaining that is a bunch of gross Wire/chillwave/hypnogogic style stuff about ghostly memories of a slow jam or some ish

wicked games the vocals are better but the song has so many unnecessary 'fuckings' its distracting & lyrically corny in parts

― deej, Wednesday, March 16, 2011 4:34 AM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think this says a lot more than 'its a slow jam + vocals are filtered' -- it says that the effect of that is distancing me from the music, that it isnt emotionally resonant as a result, and that the only narrative i can attach to that creative decision is an imo played one of 'hypnogogic pop'.

and terms like "generic" and "anonymous" are pretty loaded in their own right and embody a lot of listener bias in them, that's why I'm "pulling teeth" since it seems deej is so invested in this argument

― dayo, Saturday, April 2, 2011 1:13 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

iirc in those linked posts im not leaving those terms out there alone, although in partic examples i can unpack them if you want.

youll have to quote specifically though because i cant remember a time where i used those w/out context or where i was summing up something that had already been explained in detail

that would be helpful deej - fwiw I hope you can see why the distancing of the listener from the music would be appealing to others, even if it's not appealing to you

like one reason you give for not liking it is that "it's a slow jam + vocals are filtered" but it's not apparent to me what inherent contradictions that has?

Slow jams are mostly about warmth, intimacy, naturalism. Arguably one of the specific tricks of the Weeknd is the inversion of the slow jam in this respect. Which basically = Drake's "Shut It Down" but self-conscious w/r/t the thematic consequences. I can see why this appeals to a chillwave mentality.

My sense is that the Weeknd are not really indulging in chillwave sonics so much as pointing out the above similarity.

Ha xpost

More songs to talk about: Lil B's "I"m God", Rihanna's "Russian Roulette", Rick Ross' "Aston Martin Music".

and thanks for linking those posts deej, I hope you can see why they're more interesting to read than stuff like

fwiw im saying this not as a music critic: this music is not good

― timbo slice (D-40), Friday, April 1, 2011 11:09 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

i dunno when lots of people are posting many times each on a long long thread i think it's okay if not straight up inevitable that you're gonna lob some one-liners that are not very useful in and of themselves

the weeknd rules

Although I don't like Drake per se I find his vocal performance on "Aston Martin Music" much more unsettling and weirdly involving than the Weeknd's vocals, though I can't put my finger on why. At a guess, maybe it's because I get the sense Drake himself doesn't realise how odd he sounds.

and thanks for linking those posts deej, I hope you can see why they're more interesting to read than stuff like

fwiw im saying this not as a music critic: this music is not good
― timbo slice (D-40), Friday, April 1, 2011 11:09 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

― dayo, Saturday, April 2, 2011 1:23 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

fwiw this was a reaction to the feeling i was getting that the anti- side was being represented as responding purely to the hype, thus all the 'oh jeez music critics itt' etc

Although I don't like Drake per se I find his vocal performance on "Aston Martin Music" much more unsettling and weirdly involving than the Weeknd's vocals, though I can't put my finger on why. At a guess, maybe it's because I get the sense Drake himself doesn't realise how odd he sounds.

― Tim F, Saturday, April 2, 2011 1:29 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

love 'aston martin music' btw

It's like Last Train To Paris in one track.

ewww please don't say that

one of the reasons that i got really excited by the early weeknd tracks was bcuz in loft music he signs 'im living for the present & the future dont exist' & i think thats a fundamentally impt force underlying 'chillwave' but here was someone expressing this in the context & language of what sounded like a dream track

& like sure there are r&b songs that deal w/ the same basic sentiment but not w/ the same sense of displacement & unknowable loss (to me). because traditional r&b doesnt really do displacement its often so rooted/present ime. i mean part of it is hes making the subtext of ~gratitious hedonism~ text - the early morning emptiness, the disconnection & i guess this is potentially lame or gauche idk

anyway I'll be game and try to shift this thread back to talk about the weeknd instead of p4k and screeds and all that

wicked games the vocals are better but the song has so many unnecessary 'fuckings' its distracting & lyrically corny in parts

― deej, Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:34 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark

lyrically corny R&B songs are par for the course, I thought? I think the cursing in this album isn't just mindlessly used - it's a signifier of this sort of wild false bravado that acts as a defense mechanism for the singer's insecurities, i.e. "the higher that I climb, the harder I'mma drop, these pussy-ass n*ggas hold on to their credit..."

i guess to me it just seems too close to actual R&B, not weird enough, to seem partic. novel. Burial im not a huge fan of but it at least has a beat style that exists outside of current R&B, this just sounds like an anonymous slow jam to me but w/ a plainer vocal performance

― D-40, Monday, March 21, 2011 10:38 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark

I don't know if the music is trying to be out-and-out weird - as some dude pointed out early, there is an uncanny valley effect going on where it's just close enough to actual r&b to put you into that emotional mode of receiving/listening, but the actual emotional message is pretty different. also this uses the term 'actual R&B' which as has been pointed out itt has all sorts of problems w/r/t questions of authenticity & assumptions.

what matters imo is songwriting & this project has its moments --'the morning' is p great -- but some big misses too. that 'rock the boat' sampling one is generic as hell & the vocal effect is distancing. & the lyrics in the 2nd one, where he keeps saying 'motherfucker,' are really off putting & gimmicky. im kind of w/ lex here in that if you like this stuff, you should love the album tracks ("unfortunate" etc) on the last trey songz

― D-40, Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:27 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark

you'll be forgiven if 'pretty big misses' is not exactly enlightening. here you use 'generic as hell' but I don't know what you mean by that.

i listened to the entire thing on my way home & i think 'the morning' is the only song that really works well, because it actually bothers to have a worthwhile hook. they have some creative & interesting ideas to explore throughout -- i like the vocal sample, and later on the guitar-driven rhythm on 'the party & the afterparty.' for example. but yeah, for the most part the lyrics are stilted & awkward, the 'novel textures' arent nearly as novel as they think they are, the songwriting lacks hooks. this stuff imo doesnt function the way its intended most of the time.

― D-40, Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:35 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark

okay so here you think that the weeknd should have hooks - I disagree, I think there are hooks, but maybe the kind that take a couple of listens to get. what do you mean "function the way its intended to most of the time"? what do you think the music aims at doing?

also this uses the term 'actual R&B' which as has been pointed out itt has all sorts of problems w/r/t questions of authenticity & assumptions.

dayo not only is this pointless point-scoring, it's wrong. "Actual R&B" and "Real R&B" are not the same concepts. All deej meant was that the music didn't sound so unlike R&B the genre to automatically be considered something difference.

okay, I'll grant that - still, that's as much of a reaction against the characterization of the music by critics than it is about the music itself

Deej's point in that statement was that the sonic and aesthetic choices that the Weeknd makes might seem more interesting if they were more divorced from typical R&B. In the absence of that, it's hard not simply to rank the Weeknd against other vocalists, songwriters and producers in R&B and find the project middling or unremarkable as a result.

Serious non-dick question: would any huge fans of the Weeknd describe their enjoyment of the music as being on any basis other than its chillwavey vibe?

wld be unfortunate if "reverb" became its own genre

― call all destroyer, Friday, April 1, 2011 7:01 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdajrGhBBIA