★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

i find "delicately picking one's way towards reasonableness" a horribly inhibiting way of writing, and one that's far too easily ignored. basically people need to punched in the face (figuratively) (well also literally but sadly geography prohibits this) with #realtalk

i don't get "counterproductive". i could write a nice article about the kandi album that isn't negative about anyone! it would a) not get commissioned b) even if it did it would get 1/100th of the readers that this did c) would do nothing to rectify the imbalance in the critical discourse that's what's pissing us off here

cf my sunny sweeney feature in last week's guardian that afaik three people read

its a rhetorical style, it doesnt mean your underlying points are any different, and a smart reader should be able to figure out the diff

this is more like an a-bomb to the face, where you're not afraid of what other ideas remain standing

this is more like an a-bomb to the face, where you're not afraid of what other ideas remain standing

that's the POINT

look indie kids are notoriously dense. they are not going to NOTICE anything less

fwiw i dont actually have as much of an issue with you using weeknd for a hook into writing about other stuff, in and of itself

personally i find it more damning when a writer can identify things that people like about something & talk about why it appeals, THEN lead into why this is, relative to the genre as a whole, a marginal accomplishment at best. i think its a more convincing case. otherwise people just assume you have an axe to grind & dismiss you

but i dunno i use ilx for me kneejerk "this suxxx" type reactions so i can think things thru & be more balanced when im writing for lots of people. i mean, i have friends who like this stuff (probably), and im not about to go punch them in the face about it

i don't really care what my friends like, i only really get annoyed when people whose job it is to "think about music" (or who obviously spend a lot of time doing that even if it isn't their job) make such a catastrophic error of thought

its also like, if you get all enraged abt it in the piece imo it comes off as 'doth protest too much' -- if its not a big deal, it deserves to be eye rolled & dismissed. i dunno i mean, to be clear, i dont think my rhetoric is perfect by any means. im just thinking thru how id write a piece like this / spitballin -- but like, a superiority "this is obviously not worth our time, here's what the real heads are here for" goes better when youre main tactic is arguing that 'real' R&B fans like this vs. that.

if you were trying to convince indie fans that their approach is backwards, i dont think you can couch the argument in 'real' vs 'fake' terms, because it just reinforces the divide. if you are trying to reinforce that divide, then its prob more convincing to just be all haughtily dismissive rather than confrontational i would think

idk

my tone in the piece is way more haughty and condescending than frothing-at-the-mouth enraged!

that's why people are taking offense!

i mean like, dismissive in a way where you dont spend more than a couple sentence on it, w putdowns that dont seem a bit ott. i dunno maybe theres no diff in the end

i did only spend a couple of sentences on the weeknd! i mean i didn't write the headline, which everyone obviously knows. i spent like 10 times more words praising other artists

bottom line is: the music criticism that actually gets people excited about hearing a record usually has some kind of infectious enthusiasm or positive energy. the criticism that lifts up one record by trashing another on some "your boyfriend's an asshole, you should go out with me instead" shit tends to stir shit up but not really get people listening to music other than in a spiteful or arms-folded way. you can go that route if you want, just don't have any illusions about what's actually going to happen.

so otm. lex i'm not trying to attack you personally, i just think the "personal music critic war" modus operandi results in no good for anyone, more back and forth, less value for all. you seem to disagree, but nobody can keep up that sort of angry war forever.

i find "delicately picking one's way towards reasonableness" a horribly inhibiting way of writing, and one that's far too easily ignored.

:'(

keep fighting the good fight, lex
http://www.chasingthewind.net/Images/reagan%20soldier%20crying.jpg

i find "delicately picking one's way towards reasonableness" a horribly inhibiting way of writing, and one that's far too easily ignored.

:'(

― Tim F, Friday, April 1, 2011 1:45 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ha it's ironic that you and tom and nitsuh are three of my favourite writers to read, but in all three cases i do get frustrated by the refusal to ever really bring the HATE when it comes to bad, over-hyped music

though "delicately picking my way through" is kind of what i do when it comes to records i really admire & love, like the pj harvey one

ha it's ironic that you and tom and nitsuh are three of my favourite writers to read, but in all three cases i do get frustrated by the refusal to ever really bring the HATE when it comes to bad, over-hyped music

That is precisely what I value highly in Tim, Tom and Nitsuh's writing, Lex. It may sound very corny, but one shouldn't need to bring forth hate to write about good music. You seem to do it quite often, also here on ILM, hating on music. It comes across so childish and ultimately it's such a useless way of trying to explain why some music does move you, or is good. Taking a U-turn via hate to say what you love, to me is a rather weak approach, as if you are unable to say it without bringing on the hate first. That's precisely what my problem with your Guardian piece is.

ignore this peasantish bleating lex

:)

we r going too far here hating is important & fine

I don’t think I’ll be reading this whole thread.
Had some people over the other night and threw The Morning on during the nightcap session. A+ shit right there

I think most publications need a combination of "picking your way towards reasonableness" type critics and rabid attack dogs - I prefer to see debates enacted among writers within the same publication rather than with reference to a critical space that's bewilderingly large for most readers.

I mean, there's nothing more disheartening than debates getting bogged down in "OMG blogs said this" and "OMG Pitchfork said this" as this thread illustrates perfectly well.

music critics should have their own publication or their own message board where they can react to each other's editorials

ILM?

you ruined the joke

p4k has their own board iirc

and the Stylus board is still going, believe it or not.

I got around to listening to this last week and wanted to check out this thread to see what people thought but fuck that shit

so Dom is still posting?

wtf @ dudes complaining about music critics posting on a board full of music critics

fwiw im saying this not as a music critic: this music is not good

cool, debate closed

but in all three cases i do get frustrated by the refusal to ever really bring the HATE when it comes to bad, over-hyped music

tom, nitsuh and tim's seeming inability to do this is the biggest proof of what fantastic writers all three are, who don't cheapen themselves with bitterness. positive reviews are creative, negative are destructive. i don't care if anyone disagrees because i know it's true!

What I like about those three writers is the wilfulness to examine their dislikes and prejudices. Out and out hate is entertaining to read but is rarely actually informative.

i don't care if anyone disagrees because i know it's true!

someone's new display name right here

Not that Tom hasn't dished out a few memorable slaggings as well.

yeah analytical negativity is fine, and slagging off a record on a messageboard or at the pub or whatever, go ahead. but agendae of negativity are a bad sign.

i'm sure there are threads in the archive where i'm like this about dance music, let me hereby say it's a fucking stupid way to be.

music criticism is officially about never saying anything bad about anything then

It must be hard for some to even listen to music when while lugging around so much baggage and shit. idk I guess that’s why I don’t read ilm much

or music reviews

then why are you here now?

Out-and-out hate is fine but you have to build a case for it as much as you would with out-and-out love for a record, I think, otherwise it's just going to be overlooked (ie like those Confused Uncle Syndrome reviews we all like to have a pop at). There's a pretty good case to be built against The Weeknd admittedly.

you know, the more i think about it the more i feel people should embrace writers' idiosyncracies. saying that you should or shouldn't approach an article or review in a certain way is like telling an artist what paints or colours to use. whether a music writer comes off as frustrated or funny or overpassionate shouldn't matter so much as if they're doing what they set out to do. music writing should be as diverse and challenging as music itself.

music criticism is officially about never saying anything bad about anything then

― lex pretend, vrijdag 1 april 2011 18:25 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/music/music_139.gif

(That said I think the Lex is right about this really quite boring record and he's kind of being the victim of some major butthurt going down on this thread)