★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

Lol he didn't even say anything racist

That said I do think that drowned in sound should incorporate the phrase, "At the risk of sounding racist" into its website in various fashions

Lex what you said about "morose masculinity" is exactly why I was trying to say about Tyler the Creator in the ofwgkta thread

Repost if you read the dis board comments and creyed :'(

dunno who this is but this tweet pretty much sums up the offended responses http://twitter.com/DocZeus/status/52767010580471808

I thought this thread about the weeknd was a bit pointless and annoying given the avrage music, no idea how this group have got talked about so much tbh but that DiS thread is a no go area for me and I like the place haha that thread started off as a car crash from the start.

the funny thing is if lex didn't push back so vigorously against this album itt I probably would have listened to it once, been like "meh" and forgotten about it

what is the point of finding morons

if i abided by that i wouldn't have read any of the original weeknd pieces in the first place

yeah this is true - i kind of feel that we spent the past, like, decade arguing against this though - this is why i joined ilx in the first place! and the argument was won, basically - that's why people say "rockism zzz" cuz the subject's old hat now. AND YET AND YET

Problem is, it's not just a case of shifting goal posts, it's never obvious where the posts even are.

I'm sure lots of people who like the Weeknd would attribute their enjoyment of it to some form of anti-rockism.

More generally trying to "win" an argument in music criticism/fandom in general is like trying to control the direction of the tide with your hands.

yeah I'm confused as to how rockism figures into this? I understood rockism was privileging 'authenticity' via artists who played their own instruments/wrote their own music or something. in fact, lex's strict adherence to formalist values skews a lot close to the 'rockist' side of this argument than the weeknd's stans do

Depends on one's definition of authenticity. Drowned In Sound posters portray Weeknd as an emotionally authentic individual voice vis a vis R&B's trained form(u)lism.

In many senses (or argumentative contexts) rockism is anti-formalist in that formalism is perceived as the opposite of authenticity. It privileges busting out, breaking the rules, etc etc

Anyway I don't want to turn this into another referendum on the meaning of that word. My only point is that the debate is so multi-faceted and nuanced that there's no sense in expecting it ever to be over.

sure, but privileging authenticity is in itself normative - this is the way music should be made, and that seems to me to be where lex is coming from

with the state of music crit atm, you'd be forgiven for thinking the debate had never fucking taken place

if my piece got so much attention, i would quite like to talk about the other artists i mentioned in it? the ones i actually recommended

one thing I find interesting about the negative responses to the weeknd is that they do acknowledge that the weeknd inhabits their own emotional space - even if it's one of drugged debauchery or w/e. so on some level, they are acknowledging that the weeknd are successful in R&B's own terms. (or at least from what I understand about the form of R&B which admittedly is not much)

and another way in which rockism plays into lex's argument is his contention that 'real' R&B artists convey genuine, authentic emotion, as opposed to the weeknd's 'forced and contrived' songs

one thing I find interesting about the negative responses to the weeknd is that they do acknowledge that the weeknd inhabits their own emotional space - even if it's one of drugged debauchery or w/e. so on some level, they are acknowledging that the weeknd are successful in R&B's own terms.

A leap too far. "inhabiting one's own emotional space" is not necessary a positive if that space is perceived as uncompelling. See Drake.

sure, but privileging authenticity is in itself normative - this is the way music should be made, and that seems to me to be where lex is coming from

yes but lex is super-rockist-about-R&B in all sorts of ways, don't count him.

Here's an inflammatory analogy. What is more conservative:

(a) thinking that muslim headscarves are appropriate to protect women's modesty; or

(b) thinking that muslim headscares are wrong because normal people don't do that.

My point being that only liking "authentic" R&B and only liking "transgressive" R&B can both be rockist stances even though the judgments are diametrically opposed.

A leap too far. "inhabiting one's own emotional space" is not necessary a positive if that space is perceived as uncompelling. See Drake.

well maybe but I feel like of all the terms in music criticism, 'emotional space' is about as subjective as you can get - if you're talking about pure emotional response, everybody's going to have different preferences for what they want.

xp yeah, I can see that

which is why I'm not trying to enjoy this from some rockism/anti rockism standpoint - I'm trying to figure out why the weeknd works in R&B terms, or to get as near to the value set of R&B from what knowledgeable posters tell me on ILM, and AFAIK the weeknd does work for me as an 'R&B' album

I still think of the weeknd as dudes who have hijacked the emotional vulnerability inherent in an R&B song and used it to express their lives spent partying @ the cobrasnake's house, which I find enjoyable to listen to

Yeah but everyone agrees this is in R&B album I think. Not sure that's a home run in and of itself.

Pretty much every piece of music inhabits a particular emotional space that will appeal to some audience.

yeah but R&B privileges that effect of music moreso than other genres, or so I've been led to believe

I will admit that uh, my previous like for R&B has been pretty 'formalist' - admiration for those big shiny sounds, song structures, hooks and melodies. I'm sorry if I can relate to despairing house parties viewed through smoke moreso than having a partner cheating on me w/ a basketball player.

xpost - I'd disagree. What does 112's "Dance With Me" have to do with an emotional space except in the broadest sense?

Rather, R&B has embodied emotion within technique more than perhaps any other modern genre.

This of course is part of the basis of people's attacks on it. The implied distance from this process in the Weeknd is one of the things invoked in its favour.

'embodying emotion within technique' means what, exactly? using specific sound/textures to evoke specific emotions?

Yes, and vocal tics, lyrical allusions, etc. Something it shares with vocal jazz, gospel, blues.

Rock does this too but much of the time likes to pretend otherwise.

well yeah- but it seems like we're arguing two different sides of the same coin - you can't have one without the other, the listener and the musician exist in the same dynamic. and the weeknd's choices of samples, their decision to release a screwed version, does make me think they know exactly what they're doing about emotion, technique and sound.

You keep on changing what you're talking about.

dayo, did you get any sleep last night?

I mean, I went to bed and you were posting, and now I'm hope and here you are again.

*up

and I do recognize that you can admire that emotional technique as readily as any other part of the music - like I might not directly relate to the experience of being cheated on w/ a basketball player, but I can definitely admire the rage, the sense of indignation and vengeful glee that is present. I guess I'd have a different attitude towards the weeknd if the experience they're singing about as a whole was completely divorced from my own.

lol alfred, was that an indirect jab at the quality of my posts :[

they know exactly what they're doing about emotion, technique and sound.

Like, sure, but what does this mean one way or another? Certainly it's possible to describe things in the abstract that typical R&B does that the Weeknd (maybe in different ways) also does.

But no-one (except maybe lex) is saying the Weeknd can't be good music. The issue in this thread is more about the different way in which it is treated critically.

hah yeah, I'll agree - most of my posting itt has been reacting against the lex's polemic. I'm not really interested in the critical treatment of this band, or any band really, unless it helps me hear the music from a new angle.

xp to Alfred - I live in a timezone where your night happens to be my day

it's all good, dayo.

For the record, I'd an argument with other colleagues yesterday about this record, and was accused of "caring too much" about genre. "Genre is genre," I was told sternly. "People don't care about genre." I insisted I had no interest in genre platonism: I simply wanted critics to know what the hell they're talking about when they claim The Weeknd sounds like no contemporary R&B.

I'll amend my post that yeah, it's fun to me to observe the critical paths of bands that I like. but getting so involved and so personal about it seems strange to me. unless it's about something as Evil Empire-ish as MBDTF, then I feel all forces should be mobilized. getting so worked up about a blog band that'll be forgotten by May seems so quaint, in a way

xp really, the only thing that separates the weeknd from other contemporary R&B is, as has been pointed out many times itt, is the subject matter. I can't really think of anything else that uses this kind of vocabulary. but I'm probably just not listening to enough music.

it's not just about going in on the weeknd, much as they deserve it, it's about bringing shine to artists who are unfairly getting overlooked. we can talk about them now!

hah well I have the rolling R&B thread bookmarked, and I really like the bei majeur mixtape. fwiw honey attracts flies, you're more likely to get people listening to the R&B you want promoted if you'd tone down your polemic.

so your problem now is that people are criticizing something ?

"Genre is genre," I was told sternly. "People don't care about genre."

That's kind of how I feel? I mean, I don't know whether other people care or not, but I don't really relate to discussions of whether the album "works as R&B." I don't care whether it "works as R&B," I just care if it works, and tbh, I thought the album had an appealing mood/atmosphere but also felt kind of dull and hookless.

(What I'm comparing this to: The-Dream, Drake, Kid Cudi. Not Alicia Keys, Corinne Bailey Rae, Usher.)

so your problem now is that people are criticizing something ?

critics gonna criticize

http://mimswings.tumblr.com/post/4197885586/frank-ocean-the-weeknd-pbr-b-and-the-further

― they reminisce over dayo (D-40), Wednesday, March 30, 2011 12:11 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark

^^ booming whatever they call posts on tumblr

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