★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

lol, who's gonna revive some quality d*a*e threads

hey buddy, fuck you

thats re: using my name, btw

for the record i like *r*k*

it was a ref to your first dn can't help it if you used your gov name for that •shrug•

yes, you can.

can i help it

― who is john nult? (dayo), Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:44 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes, you can.

― timbo slice (D-40), Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:44 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

can i help it

― who is john nult? (dayo), Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:44 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes, you can.

― timbo slice (D-40), Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:44 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

can i help it

― who is john nult? (dayo), Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:44 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes, you can.

― timbo slice (D-40), Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:44 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

well i'm gone

love you for that hoos

also HOOS is a valid spellcheck item in my iPhone lol

i think deej is right about pfork fwiw

agreed

yeah i also don't understand why frank ocean is being lumped together w/ the weekend either -- nothing he's doing on his mixtape is very novel from an indie vs mainstream standpoint -- i mean shit jim jones rapped over mgmt two years ago, it's no biggie

I think ya'll care too much about p4k

that doesn't make the point wrong tho

its a p obvious point

2 classic internet argument tactics in 2 posts

In particular, the privileging of genre-transgressing indie-friendly takes on popular music long pre-exists Pitchfork and also has replicated itself in any number of areas of music not traditionally within Pitchfork' purview.

yeah this is true - i kind of feel that we spent the past, like, decade arguing against this though - this is why i joined ilx in the first place! and the argument was won, basically - that's why people say "rockism zzz" cuz the subject's old hat now. AND YET AND YET

I found this record pretty much unlistenable. Out of p4krnb I can just about enjoy How To Dress Well but otherwise I have a real aversion.

On the other hand the good thing about things like this blowing up in the ****osphere is that peeps like Lex say 'why aren't you listening to this' and then you find better stuff or revisit stuff like Trey with a more open mindset. Finding it really weird how hostile a lot of people irl are to rnb type stuff when they're otherwise openminded.

feel like if it was an album of female-empowerment anthems lex would be all up on it tho

if it was an album of female empowerment anthems it would be getting hype from the 5 people who posted in the electrik red thread, j shep, and NO ONE ELSE

i mean apart from the means of promotion this is the other reason shit like this gets privileged by critics - this morose masculinity is fucking catnip for them - how often do artists who explicitly sing from a female perspective and to a largely female audience get this sort of shine? unless they actually become megastars?

if electrik red were boys they'd have been drooled over as much as odd future

also, some lols: http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/music/4281263

At the risk of sounding racist

thank fucking god for this record! I hope it inspires other (black) r&b artists to start making great, creative music. Because Jennifer Hudson and Rihanna ain't cuttin' the mustard. Word.

I hope this record inspires a tidal wave of alt/indie r&b albums.

The simple fact is that most R’n’B leaves me cold. I find it lyrically and sonically dull and formulaic. Part of the thrill of discovering an artist like The Weeknd (or How to Dress Well) is that they present elements of R’n’B in a way that I find interesting (by being “arty” and “weird”.) It’s a form of cultural appropriation I guess, but I don’t see a problem with that.

But I absolutely agree that the majority of r&b is sonically dull and formulaic. It's as if all the young r&b artists are writing music to ride in Mirah Carey's limousine. Like vapid reality show contestants. Like a CBS crime drama. Like the writer who writes to get on the NYT Bestseller list. Some might make it, but that doesn't mean the book's worth a damn.

So here's an r&b artist who wants to make "artsy" r&b...and guess what? He did. And the album is infinitely more interesting because of it.

Most r&b has a heavy emphasis on the vocal performance, the kind we see every week on American Idol. Though at least with AI it's a bit of a goof. The Weeknd shifted the emphasis to the musical palette, and good call by going chillwave, because it's a natural fit. (The Siouxsie and Beach House samples aren't really what makes this record great.)

Jesus Fucking Christ

Lol he didn't even say anything racist

That said I do think that drowned in sound should incorporate the phrase, "At the risk of sounding racist" into its website in various fashions

Lex what you said about "morose masculinity" is exactly why I was trying to say about Tyler the Creator in the ofwgkta thread

Repost if you read the dis board comments and creyed :'(

dunno who this is but this tweet pretty much sums up the offended responses http://twitter.com/DocZeus/status/52767010580471808

I thought this thread about the weeknd was a bit pointless and annoying given the avrage music, no idea how this group have got talked about so much tbh but that DiS thread is a no go area for me and I like the place haha that thread started off as a car crash from the start.

the funny thing is if lex didn't push back so vigorously against this album itt I probably would have listened to it once, been like "meh" and forgotten about it

what is the point of finding morons

if i abided by that i wouldn't have read any of the original weeknd pieces in the first place

yeah this is true - i kind of feel that we spent the past, like, decade arguing against this though - this is why i joined ilx in the first place! and the argument was won, basically - that's why people say "rockism zzz" cuz the subject's old hat now. AND YET AND YET

Problem is, it's not just a case of shifting goal posts, it's never obvious where the posts even are.

I'm sure lots of people who like the Weeknd would attribute their enjoyment of it to some form of anti-rockism.

More generally trying to "win" an argument in music criticism/fandom in general is like trying to control the direction of the tide with your hands.

yeah I'm confused as to how rockism figures into this? I understood rockism was privileging 'authenticity' via artists who played their own instruments/wrote their own music or something. in fact, lex's strict adherence to formalist values skews a lot close to the 'rockist' side of this argument than the weeknd's stans do

Depends on one's definition of authenticity. Drowned In Sound posters portray Weeknd as an emotionally authentic individual voice vis a vis R&B's trained form(u)lism.

In many senses (or argumentative contexts) rockism is anti-formalist in that formalism is perceived as the opposite of authenticity. It privileges busting out, breaking the rules, etc etc

Anyway I don't want to turn this into another referendum on the meaning of that word. My only point is that the debate is so multi-faceted and nuanced that there's no sense in expecting it ever to be over.

sure, but privileging authenticity is in itself normative - this is the way music should be made, and that seems to me to be where lex is coming from

with the state of music crit atm, you'd be forgiven for thinking the debate had never fucking taken place

if my piece got so much attention, i would quite like to talk about the other artists i mentioned in it? the ones i actually recommended

one thing I find interesting about the negative responses to the weeknd is that they do acknowledge that the weeknd inhabits their own emotional space - even if it's one of drugged debauchery or w/e. so on some level, they are acknowledging that the weeknd are successful in R&B's own terms. (or at least from what I understand about the form of R&B which admittedly is not much)

and another way in which rockism plays into lex's argument is his contention that 'real' R&B artists convey genuine, authentic emotion, as opposed to the weeknd's 'forced and contrived' songs

one thing I find interesting about the negative responses to the weeknd is that they do acknowledge that the weeknd inhabits their own emotional space - even if it's one of drugged debauchery or w/e. so on some level, they are acknowledging that the weeknd are successful in R&B's own terms.

A leap too far. "inhabiting one's own emotional space" is not necessary a positive if that space is perceived as uncompelling. See Drake.

sure, but privileging authenticity is in itself normative - this is the way music should be made, and that seems to me to be where lex is coming from

yes but lex is super-rockist-about-R&B in all sorts of ways, don't count him.

Here's an inflammatory analogy. What is more conservative:

(a) thinking that muslim headscarves are appropriate to protect women's modesty; or

(b) thinking that muslim headscares are wrong because normal people don't do that.

My point being that only liking "authentic" R&B and only liking "transgressive" R&B can both be rockist stances even though the judgments are diametrically opposed.

A leap too far. "inhabiting one's own emotional space" is not necessary a positive if that space is perceived as uncompelling. See Drake.

well maybe but I feel like of all the terms in music criticism, 'emotional space' is about as subjective as you can get - if you're talking about pure emotional response, everybody's going to have different preferences for what they want.

xp yeah, I can see that

which is why I'm not trying to enjoy this from some rockism/anti rockism standpoint - I'm trying to figure out why the weeknd works in R&B terms, or to get as near to the value set of R&B from what knowledgeable posters tell me on ILM, and AFAIK the weeknd does work for me as an 'R&B' album

I still think of the weeknd as dudes who have hijacked the emotional vulnerability inherent in an R&B song and used it to express their lives spent partying @ the cobrasnake's house, which I find enjoyable to listen to

Yeah but everyone agrees this is in R&B album I think. Not sure that's a home run in and of itself.

Pretty much every piece of music inhabits a particular emotional space that will appeal to some audience.

yeah but R&B privileges that effect of music moreso than other genres, or so I've been led to believe

I will admit that uh, my previous like for R&B has been pretty 'formalist' - admiration for those big shiny sounds, song structures, hooks and melodies. I'm sorry if I can relate to despairing house parties viewed through smoke moreso than having a partner cheating on me w/ a basketball player.

xpost - I'd disagree. What does 112's "Dance With Me" have to do with an emotional space except in the broadest sense?

Rather, R&B has embodied emotion within technique more than perhaps any other modern genre.

This of course is part of the basis of people's attacks on it. The implied distance from this process in the Weeknd is one of the things invoked in its favour.