Ashlee Simpson 'Bittersweet World'

If she has influences on this track, it's Lene Lovich

Yeah, like Ashlee's EVER FUCKING HEARD of Lene Lovich. Be real please.

you've asked her?

Betcha a hundred dollars she hasn't.

Influence has little to do with whether an artist has heard or read about her forebears.

how can you be influenced by something you don't know exists

It's as vague as something in the air. Or the source material gets appropriated so often that you may not be able to locate it (since it's Bo Diddley day, I'd be really surprised if Anabella and the other members of Bow Wow Wow studied their old Bo 45's to record their "I Want Candy" cover). It's genes! In the same way that, somehow, you have your Great-Great Aunt Susan's nose even though she's been dead 20 years and you've never met her. I could cite Harold Bloom's theories on the anxiety of influence, but that'll take too long...

Anyway, those of us who write or record music know this -- how many times will someone say "This bit reminds me of Richard Yates" or "This first-person monologue sounds like Proust" even though you've never read the bloody writers.

*write fiction

"Intentionality" is mostly jive. Just cuz an artist SAYS she listened to so-and-so doesn't mean it's there either. But it can be! At any rate, I don't see how this discounts the possibility that Simpson conjures Lene Lovich.

I wouldn't use the word "influence" - that referes to a very particular relationship between the artist and his/her 'forebears'. Just because you read something and that "How Proustian!" doesn't mean that that person is "influenced" by Proust.

and think***

But the only way to determine "influence" is to see the forebear's referents in your work. If Simpson sounds like Lovich, then she must be influenced by her; any hesitation to acknowledge this reality sounds like condescension ("what can this dumb chick know about Lene Lovich?")

Nice floundering.

It's not like Lene Lovich is particularly well-known name. Hell, Avril didn't know who Bowie was. Ya think Ashlee's brighter than her? I don't.

Now if you want to make the argument about whether or not Ashlee's producer has heard of Lovich, that's a different matter entirely.

You must see her on the Upper East Side fairly often if you're that familiar with her iPod selections.

Now if you want to make the argument about whether or not Ashlee's producer has heard of Lovich, that's a different matter entirely

What difference does it make? She essays Lovich, and succeeds. Plus, she's credited as a songwriter.

(xp) Well no, I totally disagree. Just because you hear Lene Lovich doesn't mean that it's there in her work, you're coming at it from a totally different POV. And oftentimes an artist's influences don't manifest themselves in such obvious ways... It can be an approach toward making music/writing rather than stylistic or aesthetic similarities...

(I've never heard of Lene Lovich so I can't say whether or not Ashlee sounds like her or whatever, I'm just talking about this idea of "influence" in general)

Just because you hear Lene Lovich doesn't mean that it's there in her work,

Well, now we're entering into the realm of subjectivity, which is alright with me.

xp I have no idea whether Ashlee is "influenced" by Lovich, and yeah, I don't see why that would matter. She sounds like Lovich sometimes, regardless. Maybe she's influenced by music that was, in turn, directly influenced by Lovich. Or maybe she and Lovich share similar direct influences, and use them in similar ways. Who knows. But she's got Lovichy moments either way, so it's a moot point, right?

Maybe she's influenced by music that was, in turn, directly influenced by Lovich

This is probably the closest we've come to the mark here. Thanks, Chuck.

Incidentally, if Ashlee's music is even a tenth as compelling as Lovich's, I feel compelled to give it a listen. I have my doubts.

Well, it is at least a tenth as compelling as Nina Hagen's, if that counts.

(Actually, she's better than Nina Hagen.)

As for Lene, I don't think I like anything on the new Ashlee album as much as "Lucky Number," but I definitely like a couple songs as much as "New Toy."

"Incidentally, if Ashlee's music is even a tenth as compelling as Lovich's, I feel compelled to give it a listen. I have my doubts."

Wow. So this whole time you've been excoriating Ashlee, you hadn't even listened to her music?

I think Lovich sorta creted template for amorphously arty New Wave singing that influenced everyone from Aimee Mann with Til Tuesday to [insert electroclash femme here.]

So it might be influence by second hand osmosis.

er--"created". I've no idea what she 'creted'.

I've realised what prevents me from loving this album is almost solely the airbrushing on the vocals (simultaneously multitracked and fainter). Ashlee's voice on the first two albums is so strong that it lifts up even the weaker tracks; whereas here some tracks that would be emotional powerhouses using her old style now feel too controlled and manicured.

Still don't like "Hot Stuff" though!

Dabug, I really like "Never Dream Alone", though again it would be stronger if the vocals weren't so honeyed. It's just odd enough that it doesn't feel calculated except structurally (i.e. "we need a ballad to close out the album").

Wow. So this whole time you've been excoriating Ashlee, you hadn't even listened to her music?

I've heard her previous attempts, I've just not heard the new one.

And normally, I'd rather stick an angry fiddler crap in each ear than subject myself to the worthless poopy-pop product that gets stamped with her name. But invoke Lene Lovich and I feel obligated to hear it.

Your cunning plan is working, guys!

I hear that scat porn has a lot of Lene Lovich influence.

stick an angry fiddler crap in each ear

Alex, honestly, this sounds really painful.

>I've realised what prevents me from loving this album is almost solely the airbrushing on the vocals (simultaneously multitracked and fainter).

OTM. The other CD it was real audio spectacle the way her voice consumed the pop metal track meat, like serious confessional carnivore shit.

Now they've sort of gouged away the midrange where her personality lives in favor of pimping and compressing the really high end where dogs listen to things. If she couldn't sing, okay, but.

It's the total opposite with the Veronicas CD.

True - even when they're both singing today their particular inflections and tone-of-voice (singular) are really clear.

both singing together even.

"Resigned joy" isn't what I'm going for above. It's something more like "joy in the face of disaster." Manages to feel the disaster without losing the joy. In contrast, Marit Larsen is disaster in the face of joy -- some seriously intense self-loathing going on beneath the carnival. (Ashlee's new carnival is joyous in its own way, but there's not much disaster in it -- though there's a healthy dose of trainwreck.)

Her position seemed to be: "My life is fucked up, but this is to be expected and it's preferable to the kind of shallowness I would need to adopt in order not to be fucked up."

(part of the relative weakness of "Beautifully Broken" was that it was a bit too straightforward in this regard - show don't tell, Ashlee!)

Sorry if this has already been covered, but i don't have time to keep going through posts...

i dont think brainwasher's point was that ashlee's opinion of what the music is about matters as far as authorial intent, it was an attempt (right or wrongheaded) to give some perspective, to say that sometimes the point of a song is to be fun and brainless. i dont like analyzing shit sometimes - i dont spend hours writing up essays on why 'say yeah' by wiz khalifa is fun, or what his audience thinks about it, its just FUN. Like, in my writing i want to be balancing the emotional, overall impact w/ some intricate nerdery but here it seems like its just all this weird left brained mega-male analysis without any perspective on PURPOSE. Not neccessarily authorial purpose, but purpose as perceived by the listener

What do you mean by "I don't spend hours writing up essays on why [x song] is fun"? Are you saying that ilx pop critics spend too much time trying to discover what aspect of a song causes feel+ings of joy? Or that they become too invested in the lives of the artists, trying to connect fun/sad/x emotion songs to the fun/sad/x emotion events happening in the actual lives of the performer (often incorrectly using lyrics as a source when those words could very well fictional, not to mention written by another person)?

If you're referring to the first possibility, I agree, if that actually happens. I'm not a huge fan of in-depth music analysis, esp. when it comes to dissecting a song (that's kinda like lit class, when you spend twenty minutes talking about a couplet). But if you're talking about that second possibility, I completely disagree w/ yr hate. Example:

By comparison, Nu-Ashlee makes more sense as a teenpop star. Which is probably (hopefully) good for her market share, and neither necessarily good nor necessarily bad for her music, but perhaps what I miss is the sense of frission generated by her former Courtney-Love-gone-pop strategy. Which is kind of unfair for Ashlee, but there you go. Still, I have to listen to this album a lot more before any of these reactions are anything more than provisional.

The question that raises seems super interesting to me. Why is she suddenly creating the music she was supposed to be making all along? Has she grown up? Does she now like Timbaland's sound, or was she driven by money? I think that it's wrong to look at this sort of thinking as music criticism. It's more like music journalism...Perhaps people rely on music too much when trying to discover the answer (to their credit, though, you can figure out some answers through music...for instance, I think it seems quite obvious when you listen to Justin Timberlake that he actually likes crafting amazing pop music...I hear the passion).

Instead of using music we could just, y'know, set up an interview and ask her. And again, to the credit of these people you're bashing, many of them do interview the pop stars they write about...Ultimately, to me, it's more of an interest in people than it is in music (though I...they...do enjoy the music, too, obv.)...And why these people instead of Craig Finn, Sufjan Stevens, et al? First off, we enjoy there music more. Second, I guess I think there are probably more layers to a pop singer who is sorta forced to live a fucked up life filled with paparazzi, stalkers, etc. than there are to an indie rocker who plays a show, gets in a bus, smokes pot, plays cards, checks his myspace, plays another show and goes to boring desk job.

Jesus, seems like you could dissect a lot from Outta My Head's really fucked up music video. Kinda caught off guard with all those references!

when will you lamers learn that it ain't about 'rockism'/'popism' blah bullshit zzz, it's about wanting to talk about a great album that people like. oh wvs, bye again, wasn't worth coming back for this at all.

-- lex pretend, Thursday, May 29, 2008 10:14 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Link

haha fucking golden: it was never about an insanely reductive and fatuous version of popism for lex.

Good lord that's awful.

why has h.k.m. come back to stalk me

fuck the lot of you stupid, stupid people

(nb: this is directed more at the stupid, stupid people across this godforsaken board than the people valiantly trying, and sadly failing, to keep this thread interesting)

why has h.k.m. come back to stalk me

o yes i 4got, fauiled meeja career :D

Awesome.

This thread has nearly made me listen to some Ashlee. Not quite but v nearly.

you can fuck off too, stupid person

I'm trying to be supportive!

i would have so much more respect for the snarky dumb people who seem to have like a MAGNETIC attraction to ashlee simpson if they, like, had the slightest idea of what she sounded like

i'm trying to be nice

i think we're both failing

d/ling now.

but yeah, this goes for MOST OF YOU: fuck off until you've listened to ashlee! maybe you can try 'little miss obsessive' cuz it has the best chorus i have heard in like six years or something. not that i am holding a candle for you to produce thoughts of consequence afterwards but we may as well give this a try eh

ok i will take the lex challenge

ftr i haven't heard an ashlee simpson song since "boyfriend", which iirc i thought was a pretty good franz ferdinand song