★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

i mean, im sure at some level they are, but its a matter of degree rather than an oppositional relationship

if you don't count the massive chunks of twitter and facebook and people's actual lives that ALREADY do that but aren't considered "criticism" because they're not indie enough to be bitched about.

― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Friday, March 25, 2011 12:47 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark

oh ok, we're the snobs because we don't consider fan updates on social networking sites to be criticism. got it.

― NO BLOGS WERE INVOLVED. (some dude), Friday, March 25, 2011 12:51 PM (49 minutes ago) Bookmark

if you think daily newspapers, Vibe columns, and black music journalists are on the level of facebook status updates, then yes, that's pretty snobby

― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Friday, March 25, 2011 1:06 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark

this isn't even goalpost-shifting, btw, it's a straight up shell game.

i realize im being, like, an R&B nationalist here vs. an accomodationist but at the upper reaches of music criticism it does feel like there is a conglomeration of values that serve to disadvantage certain aesthetic choices, and that those aesthetic maneuvers just happen to be ones that have certain social bases

I guess some people just don't want those entrenched values and aesthetics in the critical community questioned because it's SO BORING AND META or because we already fought the war on Rockism and didn't you hear Rockism lost so we're all good now.

i swear to god, people, part of the reason you think the world is dominated by "indie" criticism is because that's all you're reading or considering "criticism." in the US there remain magazines, websites, columns, and reams of daily newspaper coverage of things like mainstream r&b, but for some reason people rarely conceive of them as part of "critical discourse" or real "critical opinion" -- they privilege indie and then ask why indie is so privileged.

no ppl like the lex & tim f & deej or on some 'liberal media bias' shit & p4k is their nyt. the whole 'indie dominates the critical discourse & marginalizes pop/rnb/rap/dance/country/polka' myth is so foundational to their worldview theyll go to an length to justify it, ignore any media that doesnt confirm it, and rationalize any critical postion that legitimizes it

ohh the #1 artist on pazz & jop is a rapper but not the right rapper. oh some local alt weekly has a column abt a new r&b groups mixtape but it has too many indie signifiers. oh the times magazine has a profile of dance-pop megastar but it mentions memory tapes blah blah blah

(i just realized that w/ the comparisons to black nationalism or something this could be read in a way i didnt mean -- some kind of racial essentialism of music or something like that -- but i trust that u guys know i obv dont believe indie is a 'white thing' or something like that, that this is way more complicated etc)

no ppl like the lex & tim f & deej or on some 'liberal media bias' shit & p4k is their nyt. the whole 'indie dominates the critical discourse & marginalizes pop/rnb/rap/dance/country/polka' myth is so foundational to their worldview theyll go to an length to justify it, ignore any media that doesnt confirm it, and rationalize any critical postion that legitimizes it

ohh the #1 artist on pazz & jop is a rapper but not the right rapper. oh some local alt weekly has a column abt a new r&b groups mixtape but it has too many indie signifiers. oh the times magazine has a profile of dance-pop megastar but it mentions memory tapes blah blah blah

― i always think about you (Lamp), Friday, March 25, 2011 5:57 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

its not like there isnt historical precedent for this **burns disco records**

what's the correct position to take instead, Lamp? all rap is the same and all R&B is the same, critics who backed Arrested Development over all other early '90s rap are cool because hey at least they had the genre covered at all?

like, if it's not about being able to perceive and discuss the nuances of the music, the marketing of it and how it's received by the public, if it's all just about broad strokes and general categories as far as you're concerned, then yeah I could see how you think we're calling for genre affirmative action or something stupid like that.

whatever it is it isnt this:

i realize im being, like, an R&B nationalist here vs. an accomodationist but at the upper reaches of music criticism it does feel like there is a conglomeration of values that serve to disadvantage certain aesthetic choices, and that those aesthetic maneuvers just happen to be ones that have certain social bases

you might not like what im doing rhetorically but my overall point is right man.

Yeah I mean clearly if you're an R&B singer then being seen in the papers turning up to parties regularly and looking cool is WAY more important than a good Pitchfork review when it comes to selling records, but it doesn't really help the music being taken seriously in the kind of level playing field way the Lex is gunning for.

Actually, if you're an R&B singer, it's not the Arcade Fire you should be aiming for a level playing field with, it's Lady Gaga.

the lets smoke a doob & make out w/ your girl isnt a non-position any more than 'political moderation' is -- if you dont want to engage in discussion abt this artist thats fine but this 'you guys are tooooo anxious' thing is goofy.

Yeah I mean clearly if you're an R&B singer then being seen in the papers turning up to parties regularly and looking cool is WAY more important than a good Pitchfork review when it comes to selling records, but it doesn't really help the music being taken seriously in the kind of level playing field way the Lex is gunning for.

― Matt DC, Friday, March 25, 2011 2:22 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

but does "this artist doesn't care as much about good reviews or rely on them to reach their audience" then mean that their music is less deserving or in need of good or thoughtful criticism? there's a fine line between pointing out the status quo and how we got there, and endorsing it as the way things simply are and might as well stay.

of course people who aren't fans of r&b are also not anxious about the critical reception of it!

i think i need to defend my point in that post grady quoted better bcuz it may have been a clumsy parallel. What im arguing is that critics should at the very least ACKNOWLEDGE an existing value system outside of indie's and take the perspectives into account as equally legitimate. That currently, artists like this are set up against entire genres whose histories are marginalized. its like celebrating "Rapture" -- its a cool song, deserves to be celebrated, brought scenes together. but in the end, in the annals of rap history, its really not the greatest example of the genre

i think there are constellations of 'values' that link artists & scenes & ideas & 'taste' together and i can see the value in trying to map those constellations, to unravelling the complex interplay btw social forces that help bind those constellations together, give them shape and force. i mean its interesting to look at the aesthetic & social throughlines that connect the weeknd not just to 'indie' but to like type records ambient records or contemp photography or movements in modern design &c &c &c. and then to find how these connections in turn shape the audience for this music, how it helps determine who & how the music is heard

or i guess put another way: im deeply interested in the sort of 'emotional connection' that music seeks to make w/ a listener. its p much the only thing i post abt srsly on ilm. & often critics on ilm seem interested in talking abt the connections that exist btw music & other music or larger social trends or w/e. both of these are interesting but sometimes i feel like you guys ignore the basic f(n) of music to play this why x and not y game.

ughhh this is too long but: 10 ppl right abt the weeknd. 100 ppl write abt chris brown. if you only focus on the 10 ppl who care abt the weeknd is indie really dominating the critical discourse? or are you the ones 'privileging' a certain kind of discourse?

(and personally i cringe at the idea that anything on this is 'rapture' level)

obviously there will always be some musicians that have a Serious Artist or Brilliant Eccentric image, and others that have a Fun-Loving Entertainer or Careerist Hack image, and obviously that's always going to lead audiences to treat their music with different levels of respect or consideration. that doesn't mean that their images always correlate to the quality or content of their music, or that critics shouldn't try to dig deeper and figure out if hey maybe there's something more interesting going on in the music than those surface level categorizations make you believe.

should i read this thread

you guys can go ahead and have your meta-discussion on the state of music crit but its total bullshit to pretend that The Weeknd is in the same category MUSICALLY as Diddy or Marsha Ambrosius or even a "sparse, dark & moody Trey Songz mixtape"

obv there is a crossover but it sounds totally fuckin different than that stuff so different people are writing about it and different people are listening to it

xpost YES

it really doesn't sound that different from trey songz' recent slow jams

i mean the songs are worse and the voice is worse and the lyrics are worse but yeah

it is insane that someone pays you to write about music

its like celebrating "Rapture" -- its a cool song, deserves to be celebrated, brought scenes together. but in the end, in the annals of rap history, its really not the greatest example of the genre

Except no one, not even the most rockcentric of critics, thinks of 'Rapture' as rap, especially after 20+ years of pop songs with a rap in the middle of them.

gr8080 what do u think of the tom ewing article linked upthread

smarter people than you think otherwise

xp

Except no one, not even the most rockcentric of critics, thinks of 'Rapture' as rap, especially after 20+ years of pop songs with a rap in the middle of them.

― Matt DC, Friday, March 25, 2011 6:43 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

and we'll see how time treats the weeknd as well

its total bullshit to pretend that The Weeknd is in the same category MUSICALLY as Diddy or Marsha Ambrosius or even a "sparse, dark & moody Trey Songz mixtape"

i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd but afaict it's not any more different from those 3 other things than those 3 things are from each other. but it's definitely unfortunate and counterproductive to this discussion that that totally random assemblage of recent records has become this thread's shorthand for all contemporary R&B.

i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd

The Weeknd is TRIP-HOP this has already been covered.

should i read this thread

bro - & i cant really imagine myself ever saying this again - this thread needs you

afaict it's not any more different from those 3 other things than those 3 things are from each other.

this is true. and - o my life o my sacrifice - i have heard everything that the weeknd have made, it was almost as unenjoyable as that week i had to listen to the jessie j album on loop

i listened to the song this thread is named after. i don't think i've said really anything itt that suggests otherwise or that i wouldn't have a right saying without listening to their entire album.

some dude, that "shell game" post seems like the point where this thread is becoming too dicky to even post in -- I'd already said "magazines, websites, columns, and reams of daily newspaper coverage" before I even mentioned social media

ok but this thread has taken off since they dropped a full album/tape this week fyi

xpost

i'm sorry if that wasn't sufficiently clear

sorry for thinking its really weird that you would call foul or at least stroke yr chin about the way an album you havent listened to was getting covered

tbf hes arguing abt abstract 'issues' here not the specific characteristics of this record

What's weird is that when white Britishes dudes from the Stones onwards appropriate black American or Jamaican music for an indie audience there's usually an understanding or a celebration of their limitations and a fun point of differentiation, with some self-clowning thrown in for good measure, which is why Toddla T - a pasty white guy from Sheffield, can release a dancehall album without anyone batting an eyelid.

holy crap @ this thread

what's the correct position to take instead, Lamp? all rap is the same and all R&B is the same, critics who backed Arrested Development over all other early '90s rap are cool because hey at least they had the genre covered at all?

trying to form a slightly more coherent take on this qn - at this moment in history when music is so readily accesible to anyone w/ an internet connection its worth thinking abt music as much fitting into 'emotional' or 'functional' constellations as traditional sonic/cultural ones. & so instead of always using genre as a starting (& end) point in these discussions its worth acknowledging the emotional content of the music & how big a part that plays in how its received

does that even make sense?

i do think that indie music is privileged in mainstream discourse nowadays & i think you can see that laid out in something like the pazz & jop results of the past two years when compared to the pazz & jop results from 5 years earlier -- that said i'm not totally on the side w/ lex going 'oooh lord robert please make pitchfork pay attention to kandi' because whatever, i mean really

Pazz and Jop is not "mainstream discourse".

lamp u realize that i started writing about rap/R&B because it felt like most critics i read -- aside from, like, kelefa sannah & some of the bigger nyt/nyer names -- didnt do that w/ those genres? its kind of funny to me this feels like a weird inverse of whats going on really

hey guys, i'm peacing. someone lemme know if these guys put out more music or something

its total bullshit to pretend that The Weeknd is in the same category MUSICALLY as Diddy or Marsha Ambrosius or even a "sparse, dark & moody Trey Songz mixtape"

yeah by the way the album totally is

Pazz and Jop is not "mainstream discourse".

― Matt DC, Friday, March 25, 2011 7:02 PM (3 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

is it 'indie discourse'?

Pazz and Jop is not "mainstream discourse".

― Matt DC, Friday, March 25, 2011 3:02 PM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark

well maybe it's not "discourse" in and of itself but it does represent 'mainstream discourse'

Mainstream discourse = what you see on TV, what people talk about in the bus queue, what they dance to in town centre/High Street nightclubs, what you hear piped through in average chain stores, in non-music magazines and newspapers. There might be more indie in there than there was pre-Pitchfork in the US, and pre-Britpop in the UK, but a poll of music writers doesn't represent mainstream discourse even if it might overlap with it.