★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

... and Hyperdub's promotional people know how to court that, obviously.

i feel like i'd get my point across better itt if i went full carles and talked about how R&B is 'so hot right now' but only if it has some 'altbro-friendly branding'

i swear to god, people, part of the reason you think the world is dominated by "indie" criticism is because that's all you're reading or considering "criticism." in the US there remain magazines, websites, columns, and reams of daily newspaper coverage of things like mainstream r&b, but for some reason people rarely conceive of them as part of "critical discourse" or real "critical opinion" -- they privilege indie and then ask why indie is so privileged.

the other part is that "indie" stuff -- and many other niches -- developed a purpose to criticism (and grew a community around it) in times when that was the only way it could communicate and exist; it organized along those lines in a way things that functioned as pop didn't. it seems to me that deep critical communities of fandom -- constituencies that are actually organized that way -- are starting to develop for pop and r&b, even if you don't count the massive chunks of twitter and facebook and people's actual lives that ALREADY do that but aren't considered "criticism" because they're not indie enough to be bitched about.

also gr80 otm with this

oh ok, we're the snobs because we don't consider fan updates on social networking sites to be criticism. got it.

although honestly it might not be a bad idea to submit a collection of #teambreezy tweets to the next da capo

yeah i mean, criticism is central to indie but indie isnt central to crit! just because R&B / etc genre crit isnt as fleshed out as indie doesnt mean that those of us who care abt good critical writing of the form should have to do so on indies terms. or am i misunderstanding

if you think daily newspapers, Vibe columns, and black music journalists are on the level of facebook status updates, then yes, that's pretty snobby

i think that many times those ppl privilege a lot of indie / 'crit music' more than they should

i mean im not sure that what we're critiquing here is, like, 'people who write about indie primarily & also like R&B for the moment' but a wider structural understanding of genre that privileges certain stuff, a way of thinking that impacts jay-z and kanye as much as a dude who regularly reads pfork

Not to mention that there's as vibrant a pop-music blogosphere as there is an indie one - something I didn't fully appreciate until I met friends of friends who get as much free music, early leaks, tickets and press access to Kylie/Kelis//whoever for running pop blogs. They can be as frothing-at-the-mouth fanboyish as the indie blogosphere, but they're as much criticism as Stereogum or Gorilla vs Bear or whatever. (i.e. not full length fleshed out genre crit, but the universe exists, you know?)

yes but what were talking about IS full length genre crit, not internet enthusiasm

Well, to be fair, a significant chunk about this conversation started because The Weeknd "appeals to people who read blogs" or whatever the quote was. I just meant that I think that rap blogs/r&b blogs/VIBE/etc. perhaps interact with each other in similar ways that Stereogum/GvB/P4K/etc. do? The existence of somewhat discrete spheres of music appreciation ranging from internet enthusiasm to full length genre crit doesn't necessarily create a hierarchy, except insofar as the majority of people writing HERE perhaps fall into social and professional circles closer to one of those spheres than the other? Or that something about the organizational structure/visibility/discourse within or surrounding each of those spheres seems to imply a hierarchy?

Congestion + cold meds + lack of sleep apparently causes me to end sentences in question marks. Apologies. That paragraph should be more assertive.

uh i mean the mist commercially successful AND most blogged abt star of last year was lady gaga but yr arguments are getting closer and closer to "why doesnt the blogosphere have exactly the same taste as me?"

well blog/crit types have their "OUR pop star who should be as huge as Gaga" in Robyn etc. a star as big as Gaga being as hotly discussed in those circles as their web-friendly niche artist equivalent is a rare phenomenon.

I feel like we're inverting or extrapolating one or two arguments or questions (which I might phrase as "why does an R&B act like The Weeknd so quickly gain the kind of critical acceptance similar mainstream acts rarely if ever receive?" and "do generalist critics need non-rock music to code as 'weird' or 'exceptional' to make time for it?") into a whole bunch of other tangents that I'm not sure we're going to get anywhere with (like "why is music crit so dominated by indie in the first place?" and "why does white people never want to R&B?").

if this was being discussed w/ a cadre of vibe writers right now id likely be dealing w arguments that arent too different from this one. its not like the heirarchy of R&B writers is somehow more self-aware of the interactions of these kinds of values than indie writers are

i mean, im sure at some level they are, but its a matter of degree rather than an oppositional relationship

if you don't count the massive chunks of twitter and facebook and people's actual lives that ALREADY do that but aren't considered "criticism" because they're not indie enough to be bitched about.

― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Friday, March 25, 2011 12:47 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark

oh ok, we're the snobs because we don't consider fan updates on social networking sites to be criticism. got it.

― NO BLOGS WERE INVOLVED. (some dude), Friday, March 25, 2011 12:51 PM (49 minutes ago) Bookmark

if you think daily newspapers, Vibe columns, and black music journalists are on the level of facebook status updates, then yes, that's pretty snobby

― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Friday, March 25, 2011 1:06 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark

this isn't even goalpost-shifting, btw, it's a straight up shell game.

i realize im being, like, an R&B nationalist here vs. an accomodationist but at the upper reaches of music criticism it does feel like there is a conglomeration of values that serve to disadvantage certain aesthetic choices, and that those aesthetic maneuvers just happen to be ones that have certain social bases

I guess some people just don't want those entrenched values and aesthetics in the critical community questioned because it's SO BORING AND META or because we already fought the war on Rockism and didn't you hear Rockism lost so we're all good now.

i swear to god, people, part of the reason you think the world is dominated by "indie" criticism is because that's all you're reading or considering "criticism." in the US there remain magazines, websites, columns, and reams of daily newspaper coverage of things like mainstream r&b, but for some reason people rarely conceive of them as part of "critical discourse" or real "critical opinion" -- they privilege indie and then ask why indie is so privileged.

no ppl like the lex & tim f & deej or on some 'liberal media bias' shit & p4k is their nyt. the whole 'indie dominates the critical discourse & marginalizes pop/rnb/rap/dance/country/polka' myth is so foundational to their worldview theyll go to an length to justify it, ignore any media that doesnt confirm it, and rationalize any critical postion that legitimizes it

ohh the #1 artist on pazz & jop is a rapper but not the right rapper. oh some local alt weekly has a column abt a new r&b groups mixtape but it has too many indie signifiers. oh the times magazine has a profile of dance-pop megastar but it mentions memory tapes blah blah blah

(i just realized that w/ the comparisons to black nationalism or something this could be read in a way i didnt mean -- some kind of racial essentialism of music or something like that -- but i trust that u guys know i obv dont believe indie is a 'white thing' or something like that, that this is way more complicated etc)

no ppl like the lex & tim f & deej or on some 'liberal media bias' shit & p4k is their nyt. the whole 'indie dominates the critical discourse & marginalizes pop/rnb/rap/dance/country/polka' myth is so foundational to their worldview theyll go to an length to justify it, ignore any media that doesnt confirm it, and rationalize any critical postion that legitimizes it

ohh the #1 artist on pazz & jop is a rapper but not the right rapper. oh some local alt weekly has a column abt a new r&b groups mixtape but it has too many indie signifiers. oh the times magazine has a profile of dance-pop megastar but it mentions memory tapes blah blah blah

― i always think about you (Lamp), Friday, March 25, 2011 5:57 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

its not like there isnt historical precedent for this **burns disco records**

what's the correct position to take instead, Lamp? all rap is the same and all R&B is the same, critics who backed Arrested Development over all other early '90s rap are cool because hey at least they had the genre covered at all?

like, if it's not about being able to perceive and discuss the nuances of the music, the marketing of it and how it's received by the public, if it's all just about broad strokes and general categories as far as you're concerned, then yeah I could see how you think we're calling for genre affirmative action or something stupid like that.

whatever it is it isnt this:

i realize im being, like, an R&B nationalist here vs. an accomodationist but at the upper reaches of music criticism it does feel like there is a conglomeration of values that serve to disadvantage certain aesthetic choices, and that those aesthetic maneuvers just happen to be ones that have certain social bases

you might not like what im doing rhetorically but my overall point is right man.

Yeah I mean clearly if you're an R&B singer then being seen in the papers turning up to parties regularly and looking cool is WAY more important than a good Pitchfork review when it comes to selling records, but it doesn't really help the music being taken seriously in the kind of level playing field way the Lex is gunning for.

Actually, if you're an R&B singer, it's not the Arcade Fire you should be aiming for a level playing field with, it's Lady Gaga.

the lets smoke a doob & make out w/ your girl isnt a non-position any more than 'political moderation' is -- if you dont want to engage in discussion abt this artist thats fine but this 'you guys are tooooo anxious' thing is goofy.

Yeah I mean clearly if you're an R&B singer then being seen in the papers turning up to parties regularly and looking cool is WAY more important than a good Pitchfork review when it comes to selling records, but it doesn't really help the music being taken seriously in the kind of level playing field way the Lex is gunning for.

― Matt DC, Friday, March 25, 2011 2:22 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

but does "this artist doesn't care as much about good reviews or rely on them to reach their audience" then mean that their music is less deserving or in need of good or thoughtful criticism? there's a fine line between pointing out the status quo and how we got there, and endorsing it as the way things simply are and might as well stay.

of course people who aren't fans of r&b are also not anxious about the critical reception of it!

i think i need to defend my point in that post grady quoted better bcuz it may have been a clumsy parallel. What im arguing is that critics should at the very least ACKNOWLEDGE an existing value system outside of indie's and take the perspectives into account as equally legitimate. That currently, artists like this are set up against entire genres whose histories are marginalized. its like celebrating "Rapture" -- its a cool song, deserves to be celebrated, brought scenes together. but in the end, in the annals of rap history, its really not the greatest example of the genre

i think there are constellations of 'values' that link artists & scenes & ideas & 'taste' together and i can see the value in trying to map those constellations, to unravelling the complex interplay btw social forces that help bind those constellations together, give them shape and force. i mean its interesting to look at the aesthetic & social throughlines that connect the weeknd not just to 'indie' but to like type records ambient records or contemp photography or movements in modern design &c &c &c. and then to find how these connections in turn shape the audience for this music, how it helps determine who & how the music is heard

or i guess put another way: im deeply interested in the sort of 'emotional connection' that music seeks to make w/ a listener. its p much the only thing i post abt srsly on ilm. & often critics on ilm seem interested in talking abt the connections that exist btw music & other music or larger social trends or w/e. both of these are interesting but sometimes i feel like you guys ignore the basic f(n) of music to play this why x and not y game.

ughhh this is too long but: 10 ppl right abt the weeknd. 100 ppl write abt chris brown. if you only focus on the 10 ppl who care abt the weeknd is indie really dominating the critical discourse? or are you the ones 'privileging' a certain kind of discourse?

(and personally i cringe at the idea that anything on this is 'rapture' level)

obviously there will always be some musicians that have a Serious Artist or Brilliant Eccentric image, and others that have a Fun-Loving Entertainer or Careerist Hack image, and obviously that's always going to lead audiences to treat their music with different levels of respect or consideration. that doesn't mean that their images always correlate to the quality or content of their music, or that critics shouldn't try to dig deeper and figure out if hey maybe there's something more interesting going on in the music than those surface level categorizations make you believe.

should i read this thread

you guys can go ahead and have your meta-discussion on the state of music crit but its total bullshit to pretend that The Weeknd is in the same category MUSICALLY as Diddy or Marsha Ambrosius or even a "sparse, dark & moody Trey Songz mixtape"

obv there is a crossover but it sounds totally fuckin different than that stuff so different people are writing about it and different people are listening to it

xpost YES

it really doesn't sound that different from trey songz' recent slow jams

i mean the songs are worse and the voice is worse and the lyrics are worse but yeah

it is insane that someone pays you to write about music

its like celebrating "Rapture" -- its a cool song, deserves to be celebrated, brought scenes together. but in the end, in the annals of rap history, its really not the greatest example of the genre

Except no one, not even the most rockcentric of critics, thinks of 'Rapture' as rap, especially after 20+ years of pop songs with a rap in the middle of them.

gr8080 what do u think of the tom ewing article linked upthread

smarter people than you think otherwise

xp

Except no one, not even the most rockcentric of critics, thinks of 'Rapture' as rap, especially after 20+ years of pop songs with a rap in the middle of them.

― Matt DC, Friday, March 25, 2011 6:43 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

and we'll see how time treats the weeknd as well

its total bullshit to pretend that The Weeknd is in the same category MUSICALLY as Diddy or Marsha Ambrosius or even a "sparse, dark & moody Trey Songz mixtape"

i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd but afaict it's not any more different from those 3 other things than those 3 things are from each other. but it's definitely unfortunate and counterproductive to this discussion that that totally random assemblage of recent records has become this thread's shorthand for all contemporary R&B.

i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd i haven't heard a lot of The Weeknd

The Weeknd is TRIP-HOP this has already been covered.

should i read this thread

bro - & i cant really imagine myself ever saying this again - this thread needs you