★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

ugh i mean i guess im just repeating my same stupid points over & over here but weeknd dudes are all abt 'pageantry and theatricality' theyre just using it in service of a different emotional sensibility. thats why the whole indie in yr r&b thing is just... idk like an alien way of considering the issue unless you think r&b is strictly abt one kind of listening/engagement

― ♞/♘ (Lamp), Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:23 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

thats the thing dude, i think R&B is about a multitude of kinds of listening/engagement. i just dont think that what this is doing is novel w/in that context

ftr i was referring to 'pageantry and theatricality' as far as non-musical stuff, like how Trey Songz performing shirtless is as big a part of his popularity as his songs, or Mary J. Blige having this autobiographical narrative running through her whole career, things that are sidestepped by a group who obscure their identities or don't appear in record artwork/videos.

i think a lot of people kind of want to listen to only exceptional music, as in things that are the exception to the rule or stand out from their genre, so anything that gets the weird/bold/arty tag gets a lot of attention that's ultimately a little divorced from how good or enjoyable it actually is. i totally understand that instinct, because when i was 14 the only jazz i was interested in was Sun Ra and the only classical i was interested in was The Rite Of Spring because that was what i'd heard was the OUT THERE STUFF, and now probably because of that i regard that kind of impulse as often simpleminded and immature.

― some dude, Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:24 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah tim's talked about this a lot (and this is a better way of putting it than i did) but i think there's something really great about a flawlessly executed classic archetype sometimes, and that those songs do tend to be heavily ignored. its a lot of what i like about the goon thread is it at least seems to work at creating a context where rap doesnt have to stand out to people who dont listen to rap to be considered seriously as good music

Re: Janelle:

She lives for the pageantry.

There is a difference between pageantry received as being expressive of the individual artist and the pageantry received as genre formalism.

See also why many people can check for Kanye and Andre 3000 but complain about other rap being overblown or fantastical or not realistic.

Whereas How To Dress Well and The Weekend share an assumed context of "isolationist" listening: you and your computer effectively

a) is this true b) what r&b is not 'isolationist' by your measure?

I was talking about the way in which the music is presented and talked about. None of this stuff is "true".

also tim you make your argument about functionality w/r/t dance music, but then you compare that functionality to how to dress well/weeknd, which as lamp points out code as R&B - so there's a little bit of goalpost shifting in, unless I've misunderstood your post (which I probably have)

I was comparing the functionality or lack thereof in extra-genre uses of R&B - the comparison between how dance music (however indiefied) does it and how whatver we call this stuff does it. A listener's commitment to music as a public rather than private experience can be rooted in a bias towards pretty much any genre - e.g. see Carducci on rock, people talking about the importance of live jazz, live classical, people talking about the importance of festivals, whether stuff has street buzz in rap et al, people talking about the importance of pop radio.

The bottom line for me is that The Weeknd just doesn't work at the moment. It sounds slopy, half-baked and jumps on too many trends too obviously to get on board with right now. Thats what I mean when I say they're just playing dress up at the moment. There is some tallent there no doubt but it needs to grow into its own thing big time or its pretty pointless, to me at least.

I like a load of R&B impressions, its influence is all over a load of dance music I love right now and always has been tbh its like a bread and butter dance meme and has been since disco so I'm not against The Weeknd as an idea they just don't pull it off. They will prob get too much hype off p4k, this forum and the like now and not get chance to grow into their sound as well. They sound like they shouldn't have been picked up yet, they need a load more time before they find their feet imo.

I do think the current aesthetic valorisation of blurriness has tended to result in people excusing themselves for not bothering to polish their material more. But the problem is definitely broader than p4k-soul.

it seems like theres a disproportionate amount of media attention for 'certain kinds' of acts that is based on some fantastical notion of perceived significance that seems heavily inflated relative to musical accomplishments, but that ends up becoming 'true' through sheer force of will on behalf of influential people

this is basically my #1 beef - i think the weeknd suck but after a while that just comes down to taste - it's the fact that i seem to have to read so fucking much about an act LIKE THEM when acts LIKE KANDI - u can frame that divide into fake/real r&b if u want, and replace kandi w/whomever - get pretty much zero column inches

to further fan the flames I present to you, their cover art

http://pigeonsandplanes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/TheWeeknd_HouseOfBalloons.jpg

itt deej and lex get mad at tastemakers

lol @ ghost box+last nights party

btw if you like the weeknd you should check out the second jeremih album

jeremih is a way better comp than trey songz

I had never actually heard of Kandi before this thread but having Googled her I think Lex is glossing over the issue of good old fashioned AGEISM in her (and Marsha's) music being overlooked.

Thing is, this happens in indie as well - the internet is full of indie kids screaming at the sky because the indie music they love is being critically overlooked in favour of the Vaccines or Grizzly Bear or whoever.

Genres aren't monoliths for a reason and personally I think it's fine to engage with only a small part of a genre critically or otherwise - (Lex YOU DO THIS with country, and the more female-coded end of indie for that matter) but ppl shouldn't really presume to be speaking for or of the entire genre when doing so - cf NME writers talking about "dance music" in 2007 with exclusive reference to Justice and Simian Mobile Disco.

Dan comparing The Weeknd to the Creep EP is the first thing that's made me want to listen to this actually.

Not having home internet is really starting to fuck with my listening habits incidentally.

btw if you like the weeknd you should check out the second jeremih album

the first one is better though!

personally I think it's fine to engage with only a small part of a genre critically or otherwise - (Lex YOU DO THIS with country

i think i'd be wary of doing it if the only bit of country i engaged with was the one that every other critic was, or if i was framing the country artists i liked as bold new directions for the genre. as it is, taylor swift's huge enough to be assessed as a pop star, and as for sunny sweeney, hardly anyone's talking about her at all.

and i understand ageism being the reason kandi and marsha aren't sold as (or selling like) Hot New Pop Stars, but the critical press covers tons of old people and it shouldn't be an excuse anyway

/btw if you like the weeknd you should check out the second jeremih album/

the first one is better though!

/personally I think it's fine to engage with only a small part of a genre critically or otherwise - (Lex YOU DO THIS with country/

i think i'd be wary of doing it if the only bit of country i engaged with was the one that every other critic was, or if i was framing the country artists i liked as bold new directions for the genre. as it is, taylor swift's huge enough to be assessed as a pop star, and as for sunny sweeney, hardly anyone's talking about her at all.

yah but the first one is more peaky, second has a more even feel

What is the Creep EP?

I think this is partly a structural problem with r&b really, it's so commercially setup that only a very small proportion of artists have any visibility (critically or otherwise) at any given time. And while r&b isn't really bothered with critical consensus or even courting it really it does mean that artists like Dawn Richard or K. Michelle (or even Electrik Red) just fade into the background unless there are people prepared to heavily rep for them. It doesn't feel like it benefits from the internet and mixtape culture in the same was as hip-hop does at all, even though there's no reason why it shouldn't.

number none: creep ft. romy xx - days

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZkwLqhUKdk

xp

Oh yeah, i just thought it was a single rather than an EP.

I think this is partly a structural problem with r&b really, it's so commercially setup that only a very small proportion of artists have any visibility (critically or otherwise) at any given time. And while r&b isn't really bothered with critical consensus or even courting it really it does mean that artists like Dawn Richard or K. Michelle (or even Electrik Red) just fade into the background unless there are people prepared to heavily rep for them. It doesn't feel like it benefits from the internet and mixtape culture in the same was as hip-hop does at all, even though there's no reason why it shouldn't.

this is true - what's depressing is how few people really go all out to rep for less-known r&b artists. especially critics - this is what a critic's job should be!

xp it is an ep, with some good remixes. their next single features nina sky, btw. actually creep are another good example of recontextualised r&b that i really love.

still tho weeknd are p obv going for a mood that is p distinct from all these other artists you are mentioning itt so

^ why does this point get missed. lex it seems like you still feel that they're going for a certain mood + failing but i dont think thats it

Lex's point seems to be "how dare critics value this mood over all the others" but I still think that's an unfair caricature especially of the people in this thread.

that's a shifting-the-goalposts argument though, it could be applied to p much anything, ever. "oh they're not TRYING to do that!"

what i'm reacting to: they get write-ups, across the board, that tie them to r&b, and in many cases are held up as an example of where r&b as a genre should be going. so yeah i think it's fair to assess them on what r&b's genre values are. but also taking into account that they're not trad r&b, it's also fair to compare them to other non-r&b acts recontextualising the genre.

ANYWAY i am actually going to do an article about this now :)

ok this part - 'held up as an example of where r&b as a genre should be going'

i havent seen these writeups?

me neither, they are gen being received as chillwave appropriating rnb and i think the rnb side of their side is in gen being played way down.

of their sound

the terrible sean fennessey piece linked upthread

also i've been criticising this for being unremarkable by CHILLWAVE standards as well as r&b

Yeah you're more of a Neon Indian man.

yes you are clearly a massive chillwave fan

i don't have any investment in chillwave as a thing but people have kept saying that a lot of the UK bass music i like is chillwavey - i don't mind if it is or isn't

That stuff is chillwavey in the way that Kompakt is chillwavey, ie people are just talking nonsense based on vague sonic signifiers rather than function, scene or anything else.

so what you're saying is that you like chillwave from the vantage point of other critical discourses?

he likes chillwave that is actually what people in other genres are making, those people being people who would make chillwave if they weren't in other genres.

Souljazz's 'Rapegaze 2: The Dallas - London Connection' has a decent explanation in the liner notes.

the weather is very nice

What I was getting at is that "OMG this is chillwave" is the sort of sub-Whiney line people take when they have no idea about the genre in question but a stupid compulsion to have an opinion about it nonetheless.

Might get an ice-cream at lunchtime though.

I dunno, where does chillwave end anyway? Are Forest Swords chillwave? Creep?

I don't think "Days" is particularly R&B-ish? When I'm comparing it to The Weeknd songs I'm listening to, I'm thinking more about sound palette than execution; the singer for The Weeknd sounds too much in the Chris Brown/Ne-Yo/Raphael Saddiq being lazy vein to totally dismiss R&B influence upon their sound so I don't really get some of Lex's objections.

Also maybe I am granting more credit than is due because of how disappointing I found that Jamie XX/GSH album, which is currently my Event Zero for "music that is too sloppy to pull off what I think it's trying to do".

I dunno, where does chillwave end anyway? Are Forest Swords chillwave? Creep?

CHILLWAVE CONTINUUM

the ch'uum, as it is referred to at conferences all over england.

jeremih is a way better comp than trey songz

― ico, Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:13 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

have u heard 'anticipation'? i think its iciness is a lot closer to what this is aiming for

itt deej and lex get mad at tastemakers

― dayo, Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:03 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

who's mad?