★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

jaxon has been pretty open about admitting that his like for the weeknd is about the 'indie' production - what other unspoken biases are there

sure but there's not actually any point in bringing that up. i didn't say R&B is the MOST narrative-driven genre or the only one, it's one of many. (xpost)

jaxon has been pretty open about admitting that his like for the weeknd is about the 'indie' production - what other unspoken biases are there

― dayo, Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:58 PM (19 seconds ago) Bookmark

the unspoken message i get out of conversations like this is kind of like "I really like R&B or the IDEA of R&B, but I'm only going to sit down with an album of it if it's something outside the major label system that gets blog hype as being especially weird or creative"

jaxon has been pretty open about admitting that his like for the weeknd is about the 'indie' production - what other unspoken biases are there

― dayo, Thursday, March 24, 2011 2:58 AM (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

no one was telling him hes wrong for liking this stuff for that reason. biases tho are just biases, not rules, which is why when i was making my case against this i sorta sidestepped that ... i like a lot of the qualities he likes in older records too, & he & i have exchanged links/thoughts abt that stuff before, i just think that this misses out on a lot of stuff that he & i usually dig mutually

an example is sa ra, who i liked (albeit somewhat intermittently) but they fit in w/ a whole scene of post-dilla DJs that I used to be into, whereas this def feels more like 'listening' R&B TIm was talking abt, & sa-ra also just seemed to be weirder / more interesting in pushing stuff. as far as i can tell the only 'boundaries' being pushed in this record is stuff like, hmm, you got indie in my R&B / R&B in my indie

w/ the exception of the few creative ideas i thought they had that they couldnt really tie together into a Great Song package

the unspoken message i get out of conversations like this is kind of like "I really like R&B or the IDEA of R&B, but I'm only going to sit down with an album of it if it's something outside the major label system that gets blog hype as being especially weird or creative"

ennh this is a reach, i think

well, to put it another way -- mainstream R&B is loaded with a lot of pageantry and theatricality with all these beautiful people showboating with their big voices -- that's something you can buy into as a fan of the music and let it feed into your appreciation of it, but it's not that hard to ignore either if you'd rather just put on an album and zone out. maybe some people are so averse to it that they only want to hear R&B if there's some 'faceless' or 'introspective' aspect to the artist or their sound that makes it seem less showbiz.

how would you define the indie love for Janelle Monae?

She lives for the pageantry.

i get a feel from dayo & lamp's posts as if they feel that pro-weeknd folks are getting unfairly dismissed or something, which, well, you can come up w/ a justification for basically anything so anyone who is the hater on a record in an ilx thread is gonna end up on the defensive, but in reality there's a gigantic amount of pro-Weeknd feeling & not really many people who think it kind of sucks & is overrated in the crit circles we run in or discuss on ilx. when these dudes are performing on late night talk shows & getting featured out of proportion to their actual sales or popularity yet again, its just going to be more oppressive for those of us who think they're kind of an overrated group who just happen to be good at marketing. so, keep in mind that its not like you're going to lose in the long run. the 'right people' seem to like this band

i'm not saying there's an either/or dichotomy of only big glitzy Beyonce-type stars and only indie mystique collectives like The Weeknd -- obviously there are artists like Janelle Monae that are somewhere in the middle of that spectrum, or can't really be usefully measured on that spectrum at all

and really, i was overly dismissive of lex considering i more or less agree w/ his overarching point, which is that this group is not particularly great or important but they're quirky, which means a lot to critics right now in general

its something ive been wrestling w/ in other areas of music as well -- it seems like theres a disproportionate amount of media attention for 'certain kinds' of acts that is based on some fantastical notion of perceived significance that seems heavily inflated relative to musical accomplishments, but that ends up becoming 'true' through sheer force of will on behalf of influential people

imo

and really, i was overly dismissive of lex considering i more or less agree w/ his overarching point, which is that this group is not particularly great or important but they're quirky, which means a lot to critics right now in general

its something ive been wrestling w/ in other areas of music as well -- it seems like theres a disproportionate amount of media attention for 'certain kinds' of acts that is based on some fantastical notion of perceived significance that seems heavily inflated relative to musical accomplishments, but that ends up becoming 'true' through sheer force of will on behalf of influential people

imo

lol isn't this basically how 'buzz' works

yeah its more pronounced now that sales dont force media dudes to go 'i guess we should probably be paying attention to this artist who just went platinum without us paying attention."

well i feel like on ilm theres this way of seeing this divide i guess first of all as a divide & the second of all abt a bunch of contextual or extramusical things (dancing vs not-dancing, indie vs pop, communal vs personal, labels vs blogs) when i think its at root something abt the emotional content of the music itself & the structural/mechanical techniques that are used to 'get at' these emotions.

ugh i mean i guess im just repeating my same stupid points over & over here but weeknd dudes are all abt 'pageantry and theatricality' theyre just using it in service of a different emotional sensibility. thats why the whole indie in yr r&b thing is just... idk like an alien way of considering the issue unless you think r&b is strictly abt one kind of listening/engagement

i think a lot of people kind of want to listen to only exceptional music, as in things that are the exception to the rule or stand out from their genre, so anything that gets the weird/bold/arty tag gets a lot of attention that's ultimately a little divorced from how good or enjoyable it actually is. i totally understand that instinct, because when i was 14 the only jazz i was interested in was Sun Ra and the only classical i was interested in was The Rite Of Spring because that was what i'd heard was the OUT THERE STUFF, and now probably because of that i regard that kind of impulse as often simpleminded and immature.

ugh i mean i guess im just repeating my same stupid points over & over here but weeknd dudes are all abt 'pageantry and theatricality' theyre just using it in service of a different emotional sensibility. thats why the whole indie in yr r&b thing is just... idk like an alien way of considering the issue unless you think r&b is strictly abt one kind of listening/engagement

― ♞/♘ (Lamp), Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:23 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

thats the thing dude, i think R&B is about a multitude of kinds of listening/engagement. i just dont think that what this is doing is novel w/in that context

ftr i was referring to 'pageantry and theatricality' as far as non-musical stuff, like how Trey Songz performing shirtless is as big a part of his popularity as his songs, or Mary J. Blige having this autobiographical narrative running through her whole career, things that are sidestepped by a group who obscure their identities or don't appear in record artwork/videos.

i think a lot of people kind of want to listen to only exceptional music, as in things that are the exception to the rule or stand out from their genre, so anything that gets the weird/bold/arty tag gets a lot of attention that's ultimately a little divorced from how good or enjoyable it actually is. i totally understand that instinct, because when i was 14 the only jazz i was interested in was Sun Ra and the only classical i was interested in was The Rite Of Spring because that was what i'd heard was the OUT THERE STUFF, and now probably because of that i regard that kind of impulse as often simpleminded and immature.

― some dude, Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:24 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah tim's talked about this a lot (and this is a better way of putting it than i did) but i think there's something really great about a flawlessly executed classic archetype sometimes, and that those songs do tend to be heavily ignored. its a lot of what i like about the goon thread is it at least seems to work at creating a context where rap doesnt have to stand out to people who dont listen to rap to be considered seriously as good music

Re: Janelle:

She lives for the pageantry.

There is a difference between pageantry received as being expressive of the individual artist and the pageantry received as genre formalism.

See also why many people can check for Kanye and Andre 3000 but complain about other rap being overblown or fantastical or not realistic.

Whereas How To Dress Well and The Weekend share an assumed context of "isolationist" listening: you and your computer effectively

a) is this true b) what r&b is not 'isolationist' by your measure?

I was talking about the way in which the music is presented and talked about. None of this stuff is "true".

also tim you make your argument about functionality w/r/t dance music, but then you compare that functionality to how to dress well/weeknd, which as lamp points out code as R&B - so there's a little bit of goalpost shifting in, unless I've misunderstood your post (which I probably have)

I was comparing the functionality or lack thereof in extra-genre uses of R&B - the comparison between how dance music (however indiefied) does it and how whatver we call this stuff does it. A listener's commitment to music as a public rather than private experience can be rooted in a bias towards pretty much any genre - e.g. see Carducci on rock, people talking about the importance of live jazz, live classical, people talking about the importance of festivals, whether stuff has street buzz in rap et al, people talking about the importance of pop radio.

The bottom line for me is that The Weeknd just doesn't work at the moment. It sounds slopy, half-baked and jumps on too many trends too obviously to get on board with right now. Thats what I mean when I say they're just playing dress up at the moment. There is some tallent there no doubt but it needs to grow into its own thing big time or its pretty pointless, to me at least.

I like a load of R&B impressions, its influence is all over a load of dance music I love right now and always has been tbh its like a bread and butter dance meme and has been since disco so I'm not against The Weeknd as an idea they just don't pull it off. They will prob get too much hype off p4k, this forum and the like now and not get chance to grow into their sound as well. They sound like they shouldn't have been picked up yet, they need a load more time before they find their feet imo.

I do think the current aesthetic valorisation of blurriness has tended to result in people excusing themselves for not bothering to polish their material more. But the problem is definitely broader than p4k-soul.

it seems like theres a disproportionate amount of media attention for 'certain kinds' of acts that is based on some fantastical notion of perceived significance that seems heavily inflated relative to musical accomplishments, but that ends up becoming 'true' through sheer force of will on behalf of influential people

this is basically my #1 beef - i think the weeknd suck but after a while that just comes down to taste - it's the fact that i seem to have to read so fucking much about an act LIKE THEM when acts LIKE KANDI - u can frame that divide into fake/real r&b if u want, and replace kandi w/whomever - get pretty much zero column inches

to further fan the flames I present to you, their cover art

http://pigeonsandplanes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/TheWeeknd_HouseOfBalloons.jpg

itt deej and lex get mad at tastemakers

lol @ ghost box+last nights party

btw if you like the weeknd you should check out the second jeremih album

jeremih is a way better comp than trey songz

I had never actually heard of Kandi before this thread but having Googled her I think Lex is glossing over the issue of good old fashioned AGEISM in her (and Marsha's) music being overlooked.

Thing is, this happens in indie as well - the internet is full of indie kids screaming at the sky because the indie music they love is being critically overlooked in favour of the Vaccines or Grizzly Bear or whoever.

Genres aren't monoliths for a reason and personally I think it's fine to engage with only a small part of a genre critically or otherwise - (Lex YOU DO THIS with country, and the more female-coded end of indie for that matter) but ppl shouldn't really presume to be speaking for or of the entire genre when doing so - cf NME writers talking about "dance music" in 2007 with exclusive reference to Justice and Simian Mobile Disco.

Dan comparing The Weeknd to the Creep EP is the first thing that's made me want to listen to this actually.

Not having home internet is really starting to fuck with my listening habits incidentally.

btw if you like the weeknd you should check out the second jeremih album

the first one is better though!

personally I think it's fine to engage with only a small part of a genre critically or otherwise - (Lex YOU DO THIS with country

i think i'd be wary of doing it if the only bit of country i engaged with was the one that every other critic was, or if i was framing the country artists i liked as bold new directions for the genre. as it is, taylor swift's huge enough to be assessed as a pop star, and as for sunny sweeney, hardly anyone's talking about her at all.

and i understand ageism being the reason kandi and marsha aren't sold as (or selling like) Hot New Pop Stars, but the critical press covers tons of old people and it shouldn't be an excuse anyway

/btw if you like the weeknd you should check out the second jeremih album/

the first one is better though!

/personally I think it's fine to engage with only a small part of a genre critically or otherwise - (Lex YOU DO THIS with country/

i think i'd be wary of doing it if the only bit of country i engaged with was the one that every other critic was, or if i was framing the country artists i liked as bold new directions for the genre. as it is, taylor swift's huge enough to be assessed as a pop star, and as for sunny sweeney, hardly anyone's talking about her at all.

yah but the first one is more peaky, second has a more even feel

What is the Creep EP?

I think this is partly a structural problem with r&b really, it's so commercially setup that only a very small proportion of artists have any visibility (critically or otherwise) at any given time. And while r&b isn't really bothered with critical consensus or even courting it really it does mean that artists like Dawn Richard or K. Michelle (or even Electrik Red) just fade into the background unless there are people prepared to heavily rep for them. It doesn't feel like it benefits from the internet and mixtape culture in the same was as hip-hop does at all, even though there's no reason why it shouldn't.

number none: creep ft. romy xx - days

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZkwLqhUKdk

xp

Oh yeah, i just thought it was a single rather than an EP.

I think this is partly a structural problem with r&b really, it's so commercially setup that only a very small proportion of artists have any visibility (critically or otherwise) at any given time. And while r&b isn't really bothered with critical consensus or even courting it really it does mean that artists like Dawn Richard or K. Michelle (or even Electrik Red) just fade into the background unless there are people prepared to heavily rep for them. It doesn't feel like it benefits from the internet and mixtape culture in the same was as hip-hop does at all, even though there's no reason why it shouldn't.

this is true - what's depressing is how few people really go all out to rep for less-known r&b artists. especially critics - this is what a critic's job should be!

xp it is an ep, with some good remixes. their next single features nina sky, btw. actually creep are another good example of recontextualised r&b that i really love.

still tho weeknd are p obv going for a mood that is p distinct from all these other artists you are mentioning itt so

^ why does this point get missed. lex it seems like you still feel that they're going for a certain mood + failing but i dont think thats it

Lex's point seems to be "how dare critics value this mood over all the others" but I still think that's an unfair caricature especially of the people in this thread.

that's a shifting-the-goalposts argument though, it could be applied to p much anything, ever. "oh they're not TRYING to do that!"

what i'm reacting to: they get write-ups, across the board, that tie them to r&b, and in many cases are held up as an example of where r&b as a genre should be going. so yeah i think it's fair to assess them on what r&b's genre values are. but also taking into account that they're not trad r&b, it's also fair to compare them to other non-r&b acts recontextualising the genre.

ANYWAY i am actually going to do an article about this now :)

ok this part - 'held up as an example of where r&b as a genre should be going'

i havent seen these writeups?

me neither, they are gen being received as chillwave appropriating rnb and i think the rnb side of their side is in gen being played way down.

of their sound

the terrible sean fennessey piece linked upthread

also i've been criticising this for being unremarkable by CHILLWAVE standards as well as r&b