★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

the s/t one and "motion to rejoin" are both awesome

i only bring it up in this thread because it strips down/smokes out folky bluesy shit and favors repetition over "SONIC HOOKS"

Brightblack Morning Light ... WTF?

Just listened to the Trey Songzzzzzz album. There was nothing particularly wrong with it, just not that many things extraordinarily right with it. I dug Red Lipstick and Unfortunate and Unusual, but felt the rest was pretty generic and clinical. Paint by numbers radio pop. Nothing too adventurous. lot of r.Kelly rips and MJ bridges. The gloss and sheen make the emotion feel fake.

I like dirt and mistakes and imperfect singing and lack of hooks. And I like brightblack morning light.

And I dig this moody slowjam. Did this ever break outside the bay area? Deej said a while back, "with a name like erk tha jerk he probably won't". Ha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSbVOpKq9OI

A friend whose opinions about contemporary R&B I trust just sent this to me, so I'm downloading it as I type. Reassuring, though, to see that we're all reverting to type here.

the thing i'm interested in is why the music codes mainstream r&b but the surface aesthetics & target audience are pure indie rock

How To Dress Well?

lol read the thread first

"Wicked Games" is closer to Hall & Oates than The-Dream: asshole pleading for sympathy.

i always thought of junior boys as way more in line with kompakt and ~soft sad techno~ than 2-step or the neptunes - i remember reading that sort of line on it and then just thinking WTF when i finally heard last exit because it really wasn't in there at all

The sampler EP doing the rounds for about a year and a half before the album came out was much more 2-step based, including with stuff that basically sounded like Horsepower Productions et al - mainly original member Johnny Dark's influence I think.

The "R&B for Pitchfork" line - as distinct from other non-"pitchfork" (but in practice still hyped by pitchfork) but non-R&B appropriations of R&B seems to come down to the sense of purpose or function implied by context.

I've made joking claims before that all the R&B influenced post-dubstep that lex likes is basically the UK version of "How To Dress Well", and he has admirably not risen to the bait. The underlying implication of the joke is that these are all "indie" uses of R&B.

I assume Lex perceives a crucial difference on the basis that even (what I would call, I'm sure he wouldn't) the "indie" end of dance music still has a commitment to an idea of dance functionalism, a nominal belief that this music is designed to be deployed in public, to be responded to physically.

Whereas How To Dress Well and The Weekend share an assumed context of "isolationist" listening: you and your computer effectively.
Even if in practice the music is 90% consumed in that matter regardless. Of course lots of people listen to Trey Songz at their computers as well, and it can work really well in that context too (or rather, Trey can do both "Bottoms Up" and "Unfortunate").

So you could say that the argument is less about "realness" and more about whether there is any value in producing music whose "point" seems to be to reduce the functionality or the context-suitability of its source material. I think there is value in this, but am sympathetic to lex's position to the extent that I think that critically the value of this is overstated and over-represented.

Funnily enough the real prototype for lex's position here is not deej and goonery but vahid and Kompakt "soft sad techno" - vahid objected to the amount of attention given to this kind of music because it was effectively (in his opinion) indie kids sitting at computers sighing over mood and atmosphere (I'm am obviously being incredibly reductionist w/r/t vahid's opinion but this post is getting long enough already).

And people would respond and say: "but... I go out and dance to this stuff at raves too!"

But, I think, for Vahid, the sense was that the indieness of "soft sad techno" as an idea infected even the music's actual dancefloor existence. And of course the underlying issue is the privileging of that music over and above stuff only liked by clubbers.

So, always, even the fairly neutral judgments, come down to whether the music in question is reflective of some kind of broader fight going on.

Like, I think Junior Boys emerged at a time when entirely non-dancefloor appropriations of modern dance music (as opposed to, say, disco-punk revivalism) was at a low ebb, so there was nothing particularly "threatening" about critics loving them unless you took the Vahid line (can't remember what he thought of them actually). Also 2-step had died already so there was nothing "at stake" in their appropriations (beyond the tardiness of enthused critics obv).

Whereas now they might seem like an extension of James Blake et al and I can well imagine people hating them on that kind of basis.

I assume Lex perceives a crucial difference on the basis that even (what I would call, I'm sure he wouldn't) the "indie" end of dance music still has a commitment to an idea of dance functionalism, a nominal belief that this music is designed to be deployed in public, to be responded to physically.

this, really. this is what I secretly suspect is one of lex's measuring sticks - and it'd be interesting to talk about the function of music, the context & environment of listening and how that affects your reaction to music. like I've more than once seen j0rd or others deploy the "this pop song was pretty meh but after I heard it all over the place it really sunk in". see also: "the song that feels like summer"

booming post btw xp

I had a not dissimilar argument last fall when a couple of friends said Taylor Swift was the only "country artist they liked. Their constricted notion of what was acceptable country clashed with my constricted notion of what "country" signified as a genre. Certainly James Blake, Junior Boys, Burial, et al inspired lots of snickers from yours truly about how they wedded beatz to indie sensibilities. After all these months I'm thinking maybe I'm wrong.

Whereas How To Dress Well and The Weekend share an assumed context of "isolationist" listening: you and your computer effectively

a) is this true b) what r&b is not 'isolationist' by your measure?

Certainly it's more troublesome for me to explain how How To Dress Well is not R&B than explaining how Keyshia Cole IS.

also tim you make your argument about functionality w/r/t dance music, but then you compare that functionality to how to dress well/weeknd, which as lamp points out code as R&B - so there's a little bit of goalpost shifting in, unless I've misunderstood your post (which I probably have)

Just listened to the Trey Songzzzzzz album. There was nothing particularly wrong with it, just not that many things extraordinarily right with it. I dug Red Lipstick and Unfortunate and Unusual, but felt the rest was pretty generic and clinical. Paint by numbers radio pop. Nothing too adventurous. lot of r.Kelly rips and MJ bridges. The gloss and sheen make the emotion feel fake.

I like dirt and mistakes and imperfect singing and lack of hooks. And I like brightblack morning light.

― jaxon, Wednesday, March 23, 2011 8:12 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

not exactly running to TS's defense here, can't fault you for not loving that record. but i feel like you're laying out a lot of unspoken biases here that lead people to only listen to 'arty' sorta-R&B but not any mainstream R&B more contemporary than, like, Aaliyah. imo even the most modern hip hop-influence R&B is still very much about emotion and storytelling and vocal performances, it CAN be sonically unique or adventurous but if you show up hoping primarily for that or being turned off by studio polish or an emphasis on radio-friendly hooks yeah of course you're going to get bored and go back to blogsoul.

The gloss and sheen make the emotion feel fake.

waht

Trey embellishing every fucking word with unnecessary emphatic vibrato is what makes the emotions in his music come off insincere ftr

fwiw vahids argument there figures heavily into deej goonery (lol @ this coinage) ha

fyi jaxon i def wouldnt rep for that whole LP, although you highlighted pretty much my fav tracks. You should probably check out Trey's "Anticipation" mixtape that came out a year or so before it. Its not perfect but there are def some weird / interesting production choices, really spacey/sparse R&B along the lines of 'unfortunate' (although maybe nothing as good as that song)

Trey embellishing every fucking word with unnecessary emphatic vibrato is what makes the emotions in his music come off insincere ftr

^^^^ this. The gloss has nothing to do with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEQoNAMeVgY

love that mixtape

imo even the most modern hip hop-influence R&B is still very much about emotion and storytelling and vocal performances

as much as its a) dumb and b) a false binary i still kinda like my idea upthread that a lot of this argument is about narrative vs. emotive styles of music & whether certain genres are inherently wedded to one type of music or the other. i guess this sorta ties into tim's stuff about the functional use of music & how (for me) 'narrative' music is focused both lyrically & musically on movement & structure

Well, I could argue that imo even the most modern hip hop-influence R&B country is still very much about emotion and storytelling and vocal performances, no?

Narrative writing remains a hallmark of country.

The gloss has nothing to do with it.

"Gloss" can still be used appropriately as a pejorative, i.e. "that keyboard part is just gloss," meaning it's not really very good and it's just there to give a sense of a particular production quality.

I've made joking claims before that all the R&B influenced post-dubstep that lex likes is basically the UK version of "How To Dress Well", and he has admirably not risen to the bait. The underlying implication of the joke is that these are all "indie" uses of R&B.

yeah i'm not saying that r&b can't be recontextualised - as i think i posted on tumblr, that nguzunguzu mix doing the rounds is a really incredible example of how it can be (and another reason to hate on the attention that the weeknd are getting) - ditto kingdom's r&b samples and many others. but really the trick of dumping a sped-up r&b sample into a post-dubstep track is itself getting pretty old at this point, you can always hear when people are doing it in a rote or uninspired way - it's a qualitative difference.

but i feel like you're laying out a lot of unspoken biases here that lead people to only listen to 'arty' sorta-R&B but not any mainstream R&B more contemporary than, like, Aaliyah

yeah this is otm - and with this in mind how is it possible NOT to be kind of angry at "arty" sorta-r&b being written up as though it was an amazing new direction for the genre?

Sure -- I listened to Bowie's Never Let Me Down a couple of hours ago; talk about redundant keyboard tinkles. But "gloss" as jaxon's defining it isn't what cripples Trey's recordings to my ears, and maybe I'm reading him enough but his statement implied that capital-G-gloss is a perennial problem.

xpost

really i think the superior "proper" r&b version of the weeknd isn't trey songz - as much as i'm fond of him he's not exactly a standout of the genre except by default - it's the diddy/dirty money remix mixtape

Well, I could argue that imo even the most modern hip hop-influence R&B country is still very much about emotion and storytelling and vocal performances, no?

― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:35 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Narrative writing remains a hallmark of country.

― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:35 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

what's your point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvAi2L3KgVw

Sorry

the trey songz anticipation tape does actually remind me a lot of what this sounds like its going for, maybe slightly more traditional & interested in making unusual choices but tighter in songwriting & extremely similar in mood

Just listened to the Trey Songzzzzzz album. There was nothing particularly wrong with it, just not that many things extraordinarily right with it. I dug Red Lipstick and Unfortunate and Unusual, but felt the rest was pretty generic and clinical. Paint by numbers radio pop. Nothing too adventurous. lot of r.Kelly rips and MJ bridges. The gloss and sheen make the emotion feel fake.

I like dirt and mistakes and imperfect singing and lack of hooks. And I like brightblack morning light.

― jaxon, Wednesday, March 23, 2011 8:12 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

not exactly running to TS's defense here, can't fault you for not loving that record. but i feel like you're laying out a lot of unspoken biases here that lead people to only listen to 'arty' sorta-R&B but not any mainstream R&B more contemporary than, like, Aaliyah. imo even the most modern hip hop-influence R&B is still very much about emotion and storytelling and vocal performances, it CAN be sonically unique or adventurous but if you show up hoping primarily for that or being turned off by studio polish or an emphasis on radio-friendly hooks yeah of course you're going to get bored and go back to blogsoul.

what's wrong with having these biases though

yeah thats p otm

what's your point?

i think he was responding to my post

nothing necessarily inherently wrong with them, but when i refer to them as "unspoken biases" i'm saying that people are making a lot of placeholder arguments or focusing on side issues instead of admitting to or even being aware of those biases.

what's wrong with having these biases though

― dayo, Thursday, March 24, 2011 2:54 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

nothing which is why i dont have a problem w/ dude liking this record, its the critical hosannas greeting it that are absurd

My point: narrative is a characteristic of country more than R&B. But, like I said a while ago, caring about genre restrictions is kinda quaint, and I'm backing away from it.

jaxon has been pretty open about admitting that his like for the weeknd is about the 'indie' production - what other unspoken biases are there

sure but there's not actually any point in bringing that up. i didn't say R&B is the MOST narrative-driven genre or the only one, it's one of many. (xpost)

jaxon has been pretty open about admitting that his like for the weeknd is about the 'indie' production - what other unspoken biases are there

― dayo, Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:58 PM (19 seconds ago) Bookmark

the unspoken message i get out of conversations like this is kind of like "I really like R&B or the IDEA of R&B, but I'm only going to sit down with an album of it if it's something outside the major label system that gets blog hype as being especially weird or creative"

jaxon has been pretty open about admitting that his like for the weeknd is about the 'indie' production - what other unspoken biases are there

― dayo, Thursday, March 24, 2011 2:58 AM (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

no one was telling him hes wrong for liking this stuff for that reason. biases tho are just biases, not rules, which is why when i was making my case against this i sorta sidestepped that ... i like a lot of the qualities he likes in older records too, & he & i have exchanged links/thoughts abt that stuff before, i just think that this misses out on a lot of stuff that he & i usually dig mutually

an example is sa ra, who i liked (albeit somewhat intermittently) but they fit in w/ a whole scene of post-dilla DJs that I used to be into, whereas this def feels more like 'listening' R&B TIm was talking abt, & sa-ra also just seemed to be weirder / more interesting in pushing stuff. as far as i can tell the only 'boundaries' being pushed in this record is stuff like, hmm, you got indie in my R&B / R&B in my indie

w/ the exception of the few creative ideas i thought they had that they couldnt really tie together into a Great Song package

the unspoken message i get out of conversations like this is kind of like "I really like R&B or the IDEA of R&B, but I'm only going to sit down with an album of it if it's something outside the major label system that gets blog hype as being especially weird or creative"

ennh this is a reach, i think

well, to put it another way -- mainstream R&B is loaded with a lot of pageantry and theatricality with all these beautiful people showboating with their big voices -- that's something you can buy into as a fan of the music and let it feed into your appreciation of it, but it's not that hard to ignore either if you'd rather just put on an album and zone out. maybe some people are so averse to it that they only want to hear R&B if there's some 'faceless' or 'introspective' aspect to the artist or their sound that makes it seem less showbiz.

how would you define the indie love for Janelle Monae?

She lives for the pageantry.

i get a feel from dayo & lamp's posts as if they feel that pro-weeknd folks are getting unfairly dismissed or something, which, well, you can come up w/ a justification for basically anything so anyone who is the hater on a record in an ilx thread is gonna end up on the defensive, but in reality there's a gigantic amount of pro-Weeknd feeling & not really many people who think it kind of sucks & is overrated in the crit circles we run in or discuss on ilx. when these dudes are performing on late night talk shows & getting featured out of proportion to their actual sales or popularity yet again, its just going to be more oppressive for those of us who think they're kind of an overrated group who just happen to be good at marketing. so, keep in mind that its not like you're going to lose in the long run. the 'right people' seem to like this band

i'm not saying there's an either/or dichotomy of only big glitzy Beyonce-type stars and only indie mystique collectives like The Weeknd -- obviously there are artists like Janelle Monae that are somewhere in the middle of that spectrum, or can't really be usefully measured on that spectrum at all

and really, i was overly dismissive of lex considering i more or less agree w/ his overarching point, which is that this group is not particularly great or important but they're quirky, which means a lot to critics right now in general

its something ive been wrestling w/ in other areas of music as well -- it seems like theres a disproportionate amount of media attention for 'certain kinds' of acts that is based on some fantastical notion of perceived significance that seems heavily inflated relative to musical accomplishments, but that ends up becoming 'true' through sheer force of will on behalf of influential people

imo