To what degree will you support musicians who (openly, possibly or jokingly) include racist, sexist, homophobic, or bigoted messages in their music, or who privately hold such beliefs?

I can't think of any instance where it has...

I mean Mel Gibson stopped making decent movies in 1981 so that was a pretty easy decision for me to make lol

siegbran you don't have to read this if you don't want to, i don't think anyone's intending to "solve" anything if that makes you feel better. also i guess i didn't see the discussion a month ago, wherever it was.

if i have any hardline position on anything to do with this, it's being equally annoyed by a) people who know nothing about the history or context of the genre moralising and finger-wagging from outside without even trying to engage with it, b) the widespread addiction to a certain myth/narrative about fresh new music -- the smart-ass teenagers who "just don't give a fuck," and/or people's own teenage experiences of discovering something that felt shocking and naughty as nabisco put it, c) people who just shrug off the elements of misogyny/homophobia/whatever and refuse to engage with the fact that they're problematic at all (even if they may not be problematic for you as a listener)

like all three of those stances are so inadequate

even if I do skip "Black Korea" every time.

Right. That's what I mean.

iatee, I think you've swayed me re: that Powell line, though I don't think it's impossible to read it the other way.

I'm not going to participate in this thread because I don't really have anything to contribute but wanted to share that during the moment when I thought "yeah, I wanna get into that" I went on a brief GIS and came up w/this

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/365161/clue9.gif

out of curiousity what's the way you were reading it? I've never read that song as anything but 'john cale is describing someone who he is completely disgusted by'

'So save yourselves for the hounds of hell
They can have you all to themselves
Since the fashion now is to give away
All the things you love so well'

i don't just tolerate eg t.i. and lil kim threatening to beat people up on record, that's why i enjoy it

haha ok i dunno why this surprised me

i always assumed u were a kinda music school dude lex, cuz most ppl i know w/ similar tastes to yours have either a classical background, or wanted to be a pop star in their teens so took singing lessons etc.....aesthetically they will love something like cassie or clipse w/ neat production and clean lines, but if you allude to the outré lyrical content of thug rap etc, it's like 'i don't even hear that'

I don't think people who actually hold abhorrent beliefs are capable of making interesting or novel art, but I do think people who are insane are capable of making interesting art, and sometimes this insanity manifests as abhorrent beliefs, which is why I had such high hopes for Varg, but I guess he's just a sane jerk.

xpost I've never really taken the time to unpack that song TBH, so it's entirely possible I read it wrong but then I don't think it's a particularly clear lyric. I find it hard to place both the narrator and the character he's addressing.

i don't just tolerate eg t.i. and lil kim threatening to beat people up on record, that's why i enjoy it

*Imagines Lex as a teenage Pantera fan*

you niggas better fall back, 'fore i grab a 'ball bat
take it to ya skull, that's gon be the end of all that
insist on having problems? bet this revolver'll solve that
hit 'em in the temple then i leave 'em where they fall at

^^^ <3 <3 <3

you niggas better fall back, 'fore i grab a 'ball bat
take it to ya skull, that's gon be the end of all that
insist on having problems? bet this revolver'll solve that
hit 'em in the temple then i leave 'em where they fall at

Dimebag guitar solo

nakhchivan i've always had a preference for ignorant southern crunk shit over poetic serious-faced storytelling (this is why i like crime mob better than wu-tang clan)

you are classically trained, lex?

dont rly think of wu tang in that way, they veer from grand guignol to kinda psychotic machismo w/ relatively few po-faced moments in between

Regarding Morrissey, are there any possible racist lyrics of his than "Bengali in Platforms"?

Sure, I know some fans of black music tend to interpret "Panic" as an attack on black music, but this is bullshit for two reasons:
a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that.
b) The lyrics of "Panic", to me, sounds more like an attack on mid 80s radio DJs than an attack on club DJs or club culture. It is simply an attack of the majority of the music that was popular at the time, which mdid include some dance/R&B music, but also a lot of other styles.

lol no, i went to a specialist music school and played the piano badly but i wasn't one of the real musicians - hanging out with them and being in that environment was something i think benefited me though (at least prevented me from being one of those critics who misuse basic theory terms like "coda" and "time signature")

xp

geir bomb

dont rly think of wu tang in that way, they veer from grand guignol to kinda psychotic machismo w/ relatively few po-faced moments in between

yeah i guess i'm just not a huge fan or particularly knowledgeable about them, and they're one of those acts where the cult around them is so strong that being a mere casual fan makes you feel like you're a hater sometimes - or at least that there's something you really don't get

ya yr background makes sense

a friend of mine w/ perfect pitch, former vln/piano prodge seems to think ppl who like noisy/distorted shit are actually insane

she doesn't like crunk tho

(he also has some unflattering things to say about white people)

^^new board description

b) The lyrics of "Panic", to me, sounds more like an attack on mid 80s radio DJs

it was a song about Steve Wright the shitty radio one dj.

classical music prodigies have the oddest, most unpredictable taste in non-classical music

bit like rappers. The whole phil collins thing was a shock.

even some rappers had embarrassing parents i guess

ya idk phil collins has a big kinda sportsbro following

eg ray lewis, steven gerrard

Death Certificate is a good example of a wholly integrated album that's often vile. I'm with lex: as a critic you can't ignore hateful or "problematic" material.

Here's another experiment: as a gay man most of the situations proffered in songs are alien to me. I have to either attempt to understand them on their own terms (not a problem; I've been doing it all my life) or rewrite them as gay narratives. I'm not at all suggesting that the process by which I grapple with unpleasant material is the same as this rewiring of gender, but it just points to how ambivalent our responses to music should be.

if anything, this grappling speaks to how strange it looks to me when somebody digs through songs for autobiographical parallels. If you listen that way, fine! But it's alien to me -- these songs are fictional, and I'm parsing a language which may not surrender its mixed motives, subtleties, and contradictions on first or hundredth listen.

you niggas better fall back, 'fore i grab a 'ball bat
take it to ya skull, that's gon be the end of all that
insist on having problems? bet this revolver'll solve that
hit 'em in the temple then i leave 'em where they fall at

Dimebag guitar solo

not gonna lie—this had me on the floor in fuckin tears for at least 5 minutes

wow BIG thread -- my own thoughts:

I will absolutely not listen to stuff that promotes racism/fascism/misogyny in the lyrics as that basially ruins all music IMO. When it comes to stuff that is itself clean of such messages but made by abhorrent people - if its stuff I like, sure I'll download it or get it from the used bins. I'm not gonna give money to bigots, even if they make good music.

Lyrics by themselves aren't enough. To quote one famous lyricist, it's in how you inflect.

I mean, I have bought and I like Gospel music, so I guess pretty much everything is ok with me.

If I find out someone – even someone I like – has said some ignorant shit, it kind of ruins them for me forever, unless they make some big to-do about recanting (I can't think of any examples of anyone who has made a big fussy apology though).

I don't have to agree with what someone is saying or what someone does to enjoy their work. I do have issues with people who let that get in the way.

If I find out someone – even someone I like – has said some ignorant shit, it kind of ruins them for me forever, unless they make some big to-do about recanting (I can't think of any examples of anyone who has made a big fussy apology though).

Unless they actually change their minds, apologizing about own opinions is a bit pathetic, because, obviously, even though they realize that said opinion may not be so wise for the career, they will usually keep that opinion.
I have more respect for the fact that some may feel misinterpreted, and interpreted to be more racist/homophobe/sexist/etc. than they really were.

I guess apologising for your own opinions at least reinforces the public idea that those opinions are not ok. If a number of major dancehall acts came along and said sorry for their violent homophobia, it wouldn't necessarily make them any less violently homophobic on a personal level but it might stop them actively contributing to a culture that helps to entrench bigotry. It's probably better than nothing.

not gonna lie—this had me on the floor in fuckin tears for at least 5 minutes

― ilxor you've listened to one odd future album once (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 01:52 (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if it actually did I would recommend lying in the future, tbqf

MSUIC and/or their labels, or will purchase these thin

otm

I find Eugene Chadbourne offensive but still happily buy his records.

I tend to disagree with Alfred re: the importance of authorial intent and don't treat songs as just "fictions" but he's OTM here - for me the noxious beliefs have to be in the music, and usually they are to some degree. That's why Death Certificate is about the most problematic masterpiece I own, because Ice Cube's voice is so belligerent and certain that there's no ducking or glossing over the lines you don't like. Bot not only is it a great record - it leads you to ask useful questions and dig into why he thinks what he does. The Death Certificate chapter in Jeff Chang's book is fascinating on how these ideas evolved and a reminder that "good" beliefs (anti-racism) and "bad" ones (homophobia) can coexist. At the age I first heard Death Certificate these were important ideas to grapple with - it's a great record because it's problematic, not in spite of it. The reason I want to skip certain tracks is a visceral reaction more than a principled one.

Fortunately Skrewdriver are terrible so we need not listen to them. How can you know what someone's beliefs are in private? I'm sure lots of racists listen to innocuous religious or orchestral music.

I take the lazy route, I judge by the number of idiots in the audience.

"Welcome back to Chipping and Sodbury
You can have another chance
It must all seem like second nature
Chopping down the people where they stand
According to the latest score
Mr. Enoch Powell is a falling star"

I cannot understand how anyone could read these lines as "John Cale approves of Enoch Powell" - he's describing people who are very, very clearly not avant garde welsh musicians

Uh, deliberately or not, you missed out the next two lines:

"So in future please bear in mind
Don't see clear don't see far"

... which suggests to me the narrator of the song does indeed approve of Enoch Powell. Whether you see John Cale and the song's narrator as one in the same is a different matter, obv. it's more comfortable for us nice liberal people to believe they aren't.

How do those lines indicate the narrators approval?

"So in the future, don't see, don't see far"

... that's obv. a reference to Enoch Powell "prophetic" 1968 "rivers of blood" speech

Not trying to be a troublemaker or a troll, just trying to parse this out, because the lyrics seem pretty dense to me, but those words don't appear to be in that speech?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html

They don't appear in the speech, but Powell's whole thing was being an (almost biblical) prophet foretelling of racial dischord, the man who dares to speak the truth, seeing clear and seeing far. So, in this part of the song anyway, the narrator seems to me to be a follower of Powell, dismayed at his political decline

Here's an interesting question : do you find songs about racism inspiring, or would you prefer to consume something more positive?

Fits with the bit about the "C of E looking down on you and me". Lyric is all over the place anyway, it's John Cale after all. (xp)