Black Metal!

"Metal isn't about trancing out, it's about screaming catharsis."

see, there you go again. metal is ONE thing. metal can actually walk and chew gum at the same time. exhibit a...black metal! a genre filled with trance-inducing screaming catharsis!

If this were the middle ages we'd be arguing about whether the humoral temperament of metal is really sanguine or really melancholic or really choleric or really phlegmatic.

Unperson I'm glad you bring up Liturgy because to me their work exposes the contrast between "rocking out" and "trancing out" that you propose as a false choice. When I listen to Liturgy on headphones they are intense and immersive and completely attention-seeking- I am not ignoring it and treating it as ambient muzak- I'm totally propelled by it in a way that feels aggressive and intense to me. Since it's anchored in riffs, it sounds like rocking out to me. I went to see Liturgy's last show in Baltimore and they fucking bring it. I was banging my head, people were getting really into it, it wasn't people sadly staring at their shoes. Their drummer is sick as hell, and the big riffs on the new songs they played were directly related to a long history of metal that certainly precedes just black metal (honestly- one of the new ones was weirdly Zeppelin-esque in places). So, while I would grant that there are all sorts of demographic and sensibility differences along a spectrum of metal from aggressively attention seeking to wispy and inward (i.e. from Accept to Xasthur, say), I don't buy into the essential premise here. For that matter, consider the way that individual metal songs have different sections- fast parts, mid-tempo moshy bits, intros, outros- which arguably position the same song along different points on that spectrum. Another way to think about this would be to say that people who like metal like it because they are seeking "intensity"- some people experience intensity through Morbid Angel, others through Khanate, others through Sombre Chemin or Striborg. There is a family resemblance among these groups, but it's not narrow. Obviously, "intensity" spreads outwards beyond metal and is an aesthetic value that's present in just about anything people care about- it's a marker of affective investment rather than a primary quality inherent in things.

"metal is about stuff i like, and not about stuff i don't"

"metal is about stuff i like, and not about stuff i don't"

I haven't cited a single band on this thread that I don't listen to for my own pleasure.

Except Burzum, of course.

while I accept that the actual truth-value of "if you don't like Pantera, you don't like metal" is negligible, I would offer "if you are the sort of person who tut-tuts/takes issue with/gets sandy-buttcracky about statements like 'if you don't like [band], you don't like [genre]' then you yourself aren't very metal" as an alt

I mean seriously the whole genre is built on flipping off dudes with new wave hair and yelling "slayer"

yeah metal fans never get sandy-buttcracky about ANYTHING. they never debate or question statements about the genre. and they never get mad about sweeping statements about metal.

metalheads are generally why I dislike going to metal concerts anymore. they're often one level above knuckledragging

but uh anyway black metal is awesome. like seriously gimme Taake, Darkthrone, Abigor, Emperor, Immortal, all that shit, and I'll fuck with it.

also gimme old Bathory and old Celtic Frost and I'll get a metal boner every time.

80's metal!1111!!!!!!!11!

liturgy's an interesting case because they fulfill all of unperson's weird criteria in ways that drew does a great job of outlining. hunter from liturgy thinks about this shit a lot, and he's consciously making non-introverted black metal, he thinks american black metal should be aggressive, ecstatic and cathartic in contrast with european black metal.

on the other hand they are def not metal dudes. I've seen them open for white mice, tyvek, they're doing some dates w/ the ex, and they feel out of place on pure metal bills. so in that sense they are not "metal", but if you're gonna pass by some great musicians because they don't fit yr narrow genre tag, well rock on with yr death to false metal steez...

itt the BATTLE for the SOUL of METAL will be fought

there was a time I cared about being a 'real' metalhead. now I'd rather think of myself as a music lover whose collection just happens to be 56.5% metal.

i hate pantera but i love helloween - does that cancel out my shameful unmetalness? or do i have to go to the reeducation camp and get ludivicoed with Manowar videos until i see the light?

but um when ppl say bad things about slayer sometimes i black out and wake up in a pool of blood hours later with no memory of prior events

Helloween is awes, at least Keeper of the Seven Keys era. I also like Angra's first two albums!

Am I allowed to like both Pantera and Agalloch?

if you're gonna pass by some great musicians because they don't fit yr narrow genre tag, well rock on with yr death to false metal steez...

Yeah, my hatred of Liturgy is well-established.

this thread is like the shaolin and wu-tang fighting

at least it's not deej & whiney fighting

i hate pantera but i love helloween - does that cancel out my shameful unmetalness?

to me this elevates you to an advanced level of realness - if you will cop to listening to Iron Savior records I think your permacred will be ensured

idk in a way watching metalheads argue over what 'is' metal is more annoying cuz i've been dealing with that for 15 years, whereas the whiney-deej beef i ain't so burnt out on yet.

Wrathchild America yo!

but if you're gonna pass by some great musicians because they don't fit yr narrow genre tag, well rock on with yr death to false metal steez

the thing you can do tho is listen to that stuff, enjoy it, and still call the people who rep for it poseurs & see 'em get real sanctimonious about how they'd rather be a poseur than narrow-minded - it's win/win

if i were gonna be hyperbolic phil-style i might go along with a "if you don't like black sabbath/judas priest you don't really like metal" statement. maybe that's too easy though. but the pantera thing, yeah, can't hang with that. if you like metal and lived and died and never heard pantera you'd be fine. i just think there are way better pantera-esque things you could listen to. if you needed pantera-esque music.

this dude I knew on USEnet who posted as venmlegi0n insisted the term 'poser' came from glam bands in the 80's who 'posed' for press pictures and had nothing to do with someone who was a 'pretender'

imo disliking judas priest and/or black sabbath doesn't make you 'not metal' per se...

it makes you not human.

this dude I knew on USEnet who posted as venmlegi0n insisted the term 'poser' came from glam bands in the 80's who 'posed' for press pictures and had nothing to do with someone who was a 'pretender'

ha, I would like to take that guy to Melrose Avenue during the punk era when punks called each other poseurs all day & even opened up a shop using the word - metalheads borrowed the term from punks imo

yea i had no idea what dude was on about.

so uhm can we get a proposal of what "is" and "is not" metal so we can get it ratified in the next hour, i have a wine tasting to get to....

going to wine tasting is not metal?

lol he's got you there San

(turns in his live undead picture disc, walks out solemnly to Hulk outro music)

going to wine tasting is not metal?

As long as you're drinking it from a skull, you're all good.

idk in a way watching metalheads argue over what 'is' metal is more annoying cuz i've been dealing with that for 15 years, whereas the whiney-deej beef i ain't so burnt out on yet.

I think i've got used to the pile-ons of being told on internet message boards that I'm "not metal" after all these years by actual metalheads. Had the same accusations thrown at me because I don't drink,smoke, indulge in drugs. I just shrug my shoulders at it now really.

And now I must depart; I have a review of a 3CD set by Stan Getz to write. (Stop by BurningAmbulance.com tomorrow, won't you?)

mead tastings troo though

art pepper more kult than stan getz.

will raise you one curtis fuller

if you don't like lee konitz you don't like jazz.

if you don't like arcade fire you're indie..

Konitz gets mentioned, but only in passing.

when people come in my store and say "got any sun ra?" and then leave without even looking at my jazz section it pisses me off. posers.

and if one more person comes in and asks me if i have any townes van zandt records and then leaves empty-handed without looking at ANYTHING i'm gonna run down the street after them and shove a merle haggard record down their throat.

I love the story about rufus arguing with a kid who had said records were silly. No *that's* metal!

he tore that kid up. i was proud. that was kinda scary AND funny at the same time.

what did the kids father say?

Pantera are a point on a line that runs from Judas Priest and Manowar through Morbid Angel

Pantera is a point on the line that runs from Kiss, Warrant, Bon Jovi through to Korn, Slipknot and Brokencyde.

posted this in another thread, but enjoy (think this is from alt.music.slayer from 1999 or 2000):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"S!gnificant P!ckle" wrote in message

[snip banter]

> Well let's think logically here. If a metalhead is into music for the
> music, he ignores music he doesn't like. He isn't threatened by it.

I am very threatened by boy bands. They represent the epitome of a
pseudo-culture that, like a disease (or a really bad "sci-fi" alien race),
assimilates and destroys all semblance of character our little connected
societies may have had and replaces their value systems with its own. A set
of inherently self-destructive and anti-life value systems, one may add.

I realize this is not what you meant, but can you see >why< it is reasonable
without complete insecurity to be threatened by commercialized music?

> But here's a trend I see: it's almost becoming 'trendy' to hate
> nu-metal. [...]

> HOWEVER...some people out there almost get off on insulting it.
> People get so caught up in who's a poser and who isn't and what band
> is "true" and what isn't that they ignore the quality of the music in
> question.

Not entirely untrue. But why not simply ignore those people, and not be
threatened by them?

</irony>

> Some metalheads are more into the "image" of metal and partially like
> it because of it's image and and the way it makes others perceive
> them. Obviously these people would not want to be associated with
> "nu-metal" because of this. I really am not too fond of these types
> of people because it's almost as if they put the music SECOND behind
> the image/archetype.

Like the idiot mainstream. Fuck 'em. They're not metalheads. They're
POSERS.

> And last, there are some that, whom, because of what other metalheads
> around them say and do, because of their low self-esteem, will bash
> these bands because they don't want to be viewed as a poser.

> And then there's the people that just plain out don't like it.
> However, a truly objective person gives every nu-metal band a chance
> before dismissing them. I don't see a lot of that in the metal
> community of late. I believe in giving everything a fair shake.

You meant to say "value neutral", not "objective".

The whole "open-mindedness" ideal is neat, but impractical. Stereotypes and
generalizations exist for a reason...and are often useful. Why, in the
limited amount of time you have on this earth, would you give something a
fair shake that is part of a group you have had many bad experiences with,
when you could be "open-minded" towards something that fits into a group you
have had little to no exposure to, or - heaven forbid (tm) - from a group
that you have had POSITIVE experience with?

Death is certain...life is not. Fuck the weak, embrace the strong. Etc,
etc.

> > "talentless unoriginal numetal garbage" is pretty descriptive. At least
as
> > much as any subjective interpretation of the music any cretin on this
board
> > can come up with.

> No it isn't, because it says absolutely nothing. "Talentless" is a
> word way overused, many times erroneously. I've heard of countless
> talented bands called "talentless" because they don't wank.

Is that not descriptive??

> "Unoriginal" gives a little more hints but you need to elaborate on
> it, naturally. and "garbage" says nothing as well about a band's
> sound. Granted, some people have a harder time putting into words why
> they don't like something and I don't think everybody should be
> questioned on their tastes but if your'e going to go over the top and
> slam a band you should damn well have real reasons for it. Details,
> details, details.

M-hm. Why am I willing to bet that if the poster had slammed the fuck out
of the band and then copped out with the WEAK subjectivist "The music does
nothing for me, IMHO", it would have been accepted without the need for
details?

Is it because subjectivism is not as threatening? Are opinions dangerous
unless qualified with self-deprecation?

[...]

> Just FYI, I like the Tones but I don't think they're amazing or
> anything, so it's not like I'm biased or anything, I could take them
> or leave them.

I'll just leave 'em, thanks.

DEATH TO FALSE METAL.

(think dude used to contribute to anus.com)

Pantera are a point on a line that runs from Judas Priest and Manowar through Morbid Angel

This is so wrong on so many levels...

Pantera is a point on the line that runs from Kiss, Warrant, Bon Jovi through to Korn, Slipknot and Brokencyde.

― Siegbran, Sunday, 20 February 2011 17:11

I think in Europe metalheads have a different idea of "metal" than Americans and those of us in the UK are caught in the middle. Early 90s I remember a lot of american bands denying they were metal (same as in the 80s with the hair bands who insisted they were rock not metal) yet in Europe metal still sold well and Kerrang covered actual metal bands and alt.bands and plenty in the UK found it just natural to like both. It was not uncommon to find people who liked Nirvana,Pantera,Metallica ,sepultura , alice in chains , soundgarden and Darkthrone/burzum.

Germany seemed to love Paradise Lost.