Black Metal!

he certainly picked on the wrong poster to say "rides for a lot of nazi crap" about.

fwiw I have actually paid for Burzum albums and Pantera albums. Pantera was easier tpo rationalize cuz the other dudes seemed like good guys, but it took me many years for Burzum.

That said, I pirated his last album...and spend a lot of time preaching against him to metalheads, and pointing out plenty of good non-NSBM black metal.

Really though the whole scene is shady. I felt sick to my stomach hearing the Faust (Bard Eithun) story after I'd already acquired every Emperor release known to man.

If we want to be pedantic Burzum isn't actually NSBM since his views aren't expressed on his songs (not to mention the fact that the classic albums were released before he went to prison where he then supposedly began to express his views).
But perhaps someone who was into the whole thing back then can tell us.

I can say w/pretty much 100% certainty that anselmo was ( at least in the early/mid 90s) a big supporter of white power bullshit, but I am leery of getting into specifics here because of day job stuff.

Learning norwegian on rosetta stone overnight brb

BTW, back in my record store days, we used to call albums that hinted at NSBM as "sketchy." I liked it and suggest we adapt that here.

Phil believes in White Pride. I remember getting in an argument with a Pantera dan who argued that White Pride was acceptable and not racist (lolwtf)

whatever Anselmo's deal was (I knew a lot of dudes like him when going to high school in TX so I have a pretty good idea), Pantera wasn't racist or about racism. their shtick eventually got tired, and they did spawn a lot of meat-head wannabes (so did fellow great 90s bands Faith No More and Sepultura imo), but Cowboys through Far Beyond Driven was a legendary run of albums that made a huge impact on today's metal. it's not a surprise to me that some younger metal dudes don't hold them in the same high regard as I do, but I guess it's understandable. maybe they just didn't age well... my dad didn't understand why I liked the Doors but not Iron Butterfly... maybe it's the same deal. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that anyone into stoner/sludge stuff would be put off by Pantera, though.

I love Cowboys through Driven, though I have to admit I rebought Vulgar Display of Power.a few years ago and it has dropped immwnsely in standing with me since I first heard it.

Aside from the white power shot, I am able to hate pantera

I hate my phone

Aside from the white power vibe I m able to hate pantera thx to hating phils shitty shouty fake hardcore vocals. And I like plenty of hardcore, I just think it was a terrible thing to throw on top of some relatively decent riffy stuff I might have liked oultherwise. Just a bad fit for my ears I guess.

I still sometimes have a hard time believing he's the same dude that sang Cemetary Gates

Also I much prefer listening to Exhorder's Slaughter in the Vatican over Pantera anyday

understand why US folks might be more OK with weird racist dude from Norway over racist dude from the US South. not any better for sure, but i get it.

think the indie rock poser call out is some lame bullshit.

Also I much prefer listening to Exhorder's Slaughter in the Vatican over Pantera anyday

here here!!!

Not even knowing the contaversy that would be develop, back in the day I was like wow, Pantera sure does have some similarities to Exhorder.. I LOVE Exhorder.. I always thought they were very underrratted and it was unfortunate that they were never able to record a good soundding record. But the riffage is amazing. And dudes vox were very original, until Phil decided to lift that style usuing dude from Sacred Reich's voice..

i always liked this cover:

http://www.rpmmotorsportstulsa.com/Greg/PITJ.jpg

i like the colors. already kind of a "sketchy" album title! don't know what the song is about though. never heard it.

i never listened to pantera. i've never heard a whole album. would see their videos on mtv and never thought much about them.

i purposely avoided pantera cuz of sketchy hesher dudes in high school that i didn't like

yeah, i didn't even really have an opinion back then. i knew they were around and big in the 90's, but there was so much other awesome metal to listen to back then. and if i wanted to hear knucklehead stuff i could always pull out an old youth of today or slapshot album when i was drunk.

Does anyone know a fan of glam pantera? (from the actual time) just to see what they think of what followed.

the whole industrial metal thing passed me by in the 90's too. machine head. never listened to biohazard. felt like a rehash of the 80's crossover stuff i liked. i mean i loved agnostic front and first cro mags album, so, again, its not like i was allergic to brootal mosh shit.

but the 90's had such great NEW sounds! exciting sounds.

I like some pantera songs just fine but jjjusten otm about phil's fake shouty hardcore vox. "walk" is so lame.

ARE YOU TALKIN TO ME?
NO WAY, PUNK

also read a decibel interview with phil a few months ago and he was bragging about how he beat up some guy in the 80s. cool guy.

and from a purely lyrical perspective, burzum songs are basically all about forests but phil's tough guy lyrics are definitely something of a turnoff for me.

and i don't want to do that whole "they did it better when i was a lad..." thing. its just that i had been listening to metal + punk crossover stuff for almost a decade before pantera hit it big, so it just wasn't exciting to me in a way that it would have been exciting to a teenager in the early 90's or whatever. when pantera became huge eyehategod were one of my favorite bands.

i never listen to burzum either actually. i have some of the vinyl reissues that came out but i never play them. i like that old stuff though. i'd probably rather listen to old bathory albums these days.

i just keep playing that new inquisition album. man, i cannot get enough of that.

yeah, I keep meaning to listen to that one. guess I should.

dig their artwork too

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uUZsHtBFk-s/TPq-1sC539I/AAAAAAAABAo/LDa8RSeFHzc/s1600/Inquisition+-+Ominous+Doctrines+of+the+Perpetual+Mystical+Macrocosm_halifaxcollect.blogspot.com.jpg

such a great album.

if i ever made a list of my favorite songs this would be in the top 100. actually the intro might take one spot in my top 100 and the song itself would take another spot. when i got this in 1984 i thought i had died and gone to heaven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxqPfKiUGTg&playnext=1&list=PL266EB88E49CF72AD

scott what age are you?

i'm 42.

this killed me too in 1984! loved it! love the whole EP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OlkY9W92nE

http://opereamipapa.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/42.jpg

now playing!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3a85nIEiMtw/S8zZPqfZGnI/AAAAAAAAAK0/bI--vqBAo1E/s1600/slapshot.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqteDk15Ud8

http://www.metalinjection.net/announcements/black-metal-history-month-metal-injection

understand why US folks might be more OK with weird racist dude from Norway over racist dude from the US South.

It's easier to couch it as (possibly misguided) nationalistic pride that just happens to be about white folks since those countries are traditionally white whereas the USA has always been a melting pot (since we stole it from the Natives, but that's another kettle of wax) so being pro-America doesn't have those racist tendencies... Although sometimes it does - see Tea Partiers, anti-immigration zealots, country music. (Kidding on the last one... kinda.)

Also, race issues are really complex, rarely just (wait for it) black and white (see what I did there?) and there are often regional and cultural subtleties that make it hard for even the locals to understand it all, let alone those from outside the culture. I mean, I lived in the South part of America but I never been to Norway so while I might see things in a Confederate Flag that others don't, I don't know shit about Scandenavian culture and it's presumptuous of me to consider otherwise.

I find it interesting that Arghoslent rarely comes up in conversations. This band is from Virginia, has been around for the better part of two decades and released three albums. The last two - "Incorrigible Bigotry" and "Hornets of the Pogrom" - are actually quite good musically, though the lyrics are filled with racist ideas and the band has never shied away from expressing their views in interviews.

I stocked their albums when I worked at Magnolia Thunderpussy in Ohio. I wrote on the bin card "Warning: Racist redneck fuckheads."

But they are a perfect example of an American racist band, I think much more so than Phil Anselmo, whose entire musical output and the bulk of his views are not inflammatory (maybe dumb, though).

This brings me to another point that I am not sure I shoudl discuss but I will nonetheless because I think it's important:

When I was the buyer at Relapse Records mail order, a bunch of kids involved in some kind of anti-facist group overseas (don't know exact details) saw that we carried some sketchy releases and they bombarded the email boxes of current and past Relapse artists pointing them to the stuff we carried and how they were now associated with that.

This led to complaints from some bands which led to meetings with me about what we could and could not carry. We caved into the pressure. I hated it, because I feel that even idiots should be allowed to speak and I can appreciate the music of Arghoslent while still feeling they are redneck fuckheads and I simply don't like puttiong myself as the arbitrator of morality.

When I was quite frustrated about how we determined what was able to be sold and what was not (Drudkh was perfectly fine to carry but no Hate Forest, even though they shared members), I expressed my frustration to a good friend of mine named Evan, a huge metal fan from Ohio.

Evan, aside from being kvlt and troo, is also a Jew. A practicing one, keeps Kosher and fasts and everything. And I will paraphrase what he said to me, but I think it made a lot of sense:

"I don't understand why in Death Metal and Black Metal saying Christianity is horrible is perfectly acceptable, but say it about Judaism and it's a horrible taboo. I also don't understand why it's perfectly acceptable to be misogynistic and advocate violence towards women for that matter."

I think he makes a point. It seems hypocritical to me that bands as blatant as Deicide and a billion other death metal bands (and certainly a ton of black metal ones too) can blatantly be anti-Christian (and even anti-Muslim is pretty accepted in metal circles) and bands can even take anti-religion stances entirety. But specify Judaism and that changes things?

But that goes into the complex issues on religion which make race relations seem like a kindergarden exam in comparison...

I babbled. I hope some of it makes sense...

jews are a really small minority though in comparison to christians. and there were people who actually tried to exterminate every jew on earth less than a hundred years ago. so, there IS a difference.

its weird, cuz a way to be all white power and not have anyone get upset is just yell about your polish power or irish power or swedish power. same thing really. and nobody would care.

the amount of ACTIVELY ns/racist bands with a high profile or that people would actually here is so very small. isn't it?

I think your friend Evan isn't thinking through the problem very carefully. When Deicide says that Christianity is horrible they are doing so in a culture that is predominately Christian, where their statements are understood to be anarchistic or rebellious and their pose is carefully stylized and cultivated with that in mind. Tho there has been anti-Christian violence due to NSBM (primarily church burnings and other stuff covered in places like Lords of Chaos) there has never been an existential threat linked to a particular ethos (such as National Socialism in the 1940s). Nb I am very interested in nsbm and I don't think there's anything wrong with being curious about it and I'm certainly not trying to condemn it. But I think that Evan's statement is missing a lot of the subtlety. I think that the long history of anti-semitic rhetoric leading to actual severe anti-semtiic violence makes it more dangerous than anti-christian rhetoric which, at least in my eyes, can never be quite as threatening. YMMV, etc. (Kerr asked me to respond so... idk.)

aka what scott said

Do pagans and church of satan people etc get hassle from religious types?

I think there's a lot of truth to what scott and mordy said about why saying being an "anti-christian" band is quite different than an NSBM one due to extreme historical persecution.

but.

I also don't understand why it's perfectly acceptable to be misogynistic and advocate violence towards women for that matter.

this is something I can get behind. another group with no small share of historical persecution and pornogrind bands even get mainstream coverage in mags like decibel.

and arghoslent really are quite good but I paid attention to their lyrics once and it churned my stomach. haven't listened since.

I am half Jewish myself. On mom's side even. German Jew so I know I had relatives who escaped the holocaust. I am not insensitive to this.

I guess maybe it's also about what the bands espouse... Anti-Christian bands take on the institution of Christianity and the history, whereas the NSBMers take on actual Jews using the stereotypes and whatnot.

I am pretty sure that David Vincent or Glen Benton knows Christians and might even be friendly with them even if they find their religion silly. I don't see the Count or Arghoslent members from associating with Jews or blacks or whatever.

And I think a lot of bands do it for shock. such as:

http://arslibertatis.com/sources/jesus_is_a_cunt.jpg

dani filth is a cunt (uk kind btw )