Hip Hop taken to new levels.

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o that ddrake! he just seemed SO confident you needed to check it db, seiously. i shall never believe him again!

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 17 November 2003 09:55 (twenty-two years ago)

word

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 17 November 2003 09:58 (twenty-two years ago)

ddrake, Blues People may reflect a certain truth (of Leroi Jones' experiences and ideas) that is well presented -- but its General Premise is completely False if taken as a Factual Account. Go and listen to Charley Patton and tell me what you think all of his influences were.

as far as hip hop threads go, some have turned the discarded Mind/Body split into pure Body -- as if that is what Hip Hop is supposed to be, though it never has been from the very beginning. The fascism of the Rump is as smothering as the fascism of the Mind.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 17 November 2003 10:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Just found this thread... I agree, that some of the "progressive" elements the original poster suggests aren't progressive at all, because they've been done before, and adding them to rap music wouldn't make it any more "progressive", just more like some other genres. This applies especially to suggestion number one: people who actually do this kind of things (The Broun Fellinis, The Roots, maybe even Outkast on "Aquemini") don't sound progressive at all, just rap-lite. As for suggestion 2, a lot of these things have been done in rap, especially on instrumental records. As for suggestion 3, "unusual or experimental vocal intonation and phrasing" are not absent in rap, they're a common way of proving your skills, no? As for electronically processed vocal lines, these have been done by, for example, Divine Styler and Outkast. Suggestion 4 is especially ignorant, since the world is full of non-Western rap. Also, non-Western (non-4/4) meters are common even in Western rap.

I think the original poster got so much heat because he seemed to have this misconception about what rap is, and then he suggested it should be made more "progressive" by elements, which are either not progressive or already exist in rap. So, before you criticize rap for being "not progressive", you should listen to it a bit more.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I hope we never have a Paul Simon/Peter Gabriel of hip hop.

Uh, Wyclef Jean?

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 17 November 2003 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

The mountain comes to the prophet :

The next NWW project, which Stapleton is working on at the moment, is going to be a hip-hop album. It will also feature a very talented female rapper.

Film at eleven.

― Herbstmute (Wintermute), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Tuomas, the original poster acknowledged that many of these elements probably already existed in rap - he was asking for examples. He got heat because this one's already been debated to death elsewhere on ILM, but that's really not his fault.

― Jason J, Monday, 17 November 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

just one state westward and he would be!

stence where do you think I live? this his puzzling the hell out of me

what I said:

it's foul enough to make you reexamine anything you might've thought about his previous work

I'd stand by that, and don't think it's actually that reactionary a position from a critical standpoint

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 12:44 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread pisses me off. Immensely. So I'm just gonna answer these...

3. Unusal or experimental vocal intonation and phrasing. Or vocal lines processed electronically with more than just a vocoder.

Lyrics Born. If you're not J3ss H4rv3ll, you may likey a lot. He's very chameleonic and unprecedented. And funky as fuck.

4. Hip hop with heavy use of non-western influences and sounds (African, Indian, Asian) or peripheral western sounds. And not just a programmed beep vaguely rooted in a non-western scale.

MODERN HIP-HOP RADIO TO THREAD

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

D'oh! I fudged those italics tags, innit?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm curious what it is about hip-hop that we can't talk about it as a form of music without bringing in the cultural implications as we can with other just-as-new styles of music (the entire electronic music spectrum, fr'instance).

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

ddrake, STOP GIVING MY DAD'S ALMA MATER A BAD NAME. For fuck's sake.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

mornin' Dan

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I was going to say something along the lines of "I can't believe I missed this thread" but really, is there any point to this thread? Dude was looking for hip-hop that sampled certain things, the usual suspects teased him (seemingly out of the blue; I hope there's context I'm missing and people didn't just spontaneously decide to be dicks) and then ddrake decided to make everyone connected with Wooster look like an asshat. WTF???????

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

someone compile a list of the most avant-garde/leftfield but still hip hop tracks please

― darko donnington (blueski), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

...and stick around to see it kissed off as not hip-hop.

― gifto of gabbington (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

The track that always struck me as hip-hop that everyone laughs at me for whenever I bring it up is "Pulk/Pull Revolving Doors" by Radiohead.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Dalek was a really good recommendation that covers all four of the areas to some degree.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

sure it's wanky and dubious by definition but what the hell...put your money where your spewhole is...

Unrap: a collection of hip hop cuts from the left

Lewis Parker 'Shadow Of Autumn'
Earthling 'Nefisa'
Anti-Pop Consortium 'Ghost Lawns'
Optical 'Reckless Dub'
Funkstorung 'Grammy Winners'
DJ Shadow 'Midnight In A Perfect World (GAB mix)'
MC Solaar 'Le Concubline De Hemogbline'

what else?

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

something by Saul Williams

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Prefuse 73 'Point To B'
Req 'Razzmatazz'

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

yah, dalek is good. try new kingdom too.(paradise don't come cheap) or divine styler.(and not even his hippy psych freakout album that i love beyond all reasoning but his first album word power and his third album word power II as well) or even jungle brothers. done by the forces of nature or j beez wit da remedy. there is some good musique concrete on that album.

― scott seward, Monday, 17 November 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

or public enemy. have you ever heard public enemy? lotsa sounds on a public enemy record. and for your number 3 description try the jonzun crew.

― scott seward, Monday, 17 November 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Defend Jamiroquai

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, and for your number 2-dalek have collabbed with Faust so there ya go.

― scott seward, Monday, 17 November 2003 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

i still haven't heard any Dalek

what are you getting at fiddo?

― darko donnington (blueski), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Dear god, this thread is retarded.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

3. Unusal or experimental vocal intonation and phrasing. Or vocal lines processed electronically with more than just a vocoder.

MadLib

― Chris B. Sure (Chris V), Monday, 17 November 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

^ also Freestyle Fellowship, all other Project Blowed related stuff, Busta Rhymes, Gravediggaz, Dose One, Aesop Rock.
As far as point #4 goes, I think you'd like Prefuse 73, James. Have you heard anything about him? Check out DJ Vadim too, and his Isolationist project.
Shit, are you even reading this anymore?

― oops (Oops), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

ddrake, STOP GIVING MY DAD'S ALMA MATER A BAD NAME. For fuck's sake.

Dude, shut the fuck up.
"giving it a bad name," what the fuck are you, 12?
And I never claimed that I KNEW he hadn't heard world destruction! For fuck's sake, you guys can be assholes. I asked him if he heard it, he ignored my question, so I assumed that meant he hadn't.
What the fuck does it take to NOT get treated like shit around here and still disagree with someone!?

Which is what I was saying the entire fucking time.

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to congratulate you all on the ridiculous level of immaturity that has been present throughout this thread.
Its been cool guys.

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Hello, pot? This is kettle. You have a call on line one: something regarding blackness."

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

The original poster didn't say that he wanted more "progressive" hip hop - he said he wanted more "experimental" hip hop. There's a difference. So rather than jumping on him for supposedly claiming that hip hop as it currently exists is "not progressive", which as far as I can see he never said, why not listen to what he's actually saying. Surely there are many innovative and even experimental things going on even in the most popular hip hop, but if someone wants to seek out hip hop with a more self-consciously "out" (in the jazz sense) approach, why should we want to stop them?

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

also, being called "immature" on these boards is something Dan Perry is extremely used to

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

A badge of honor he wears with pride!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Hello, pot? This is kettle. You have a call on line one: something regarding blackness."

How exactly was I being immature?
Looking up people's personal information on the internet? Oh wait, that was someone else.
Personal insults? Nope, someone else again.
Comparisons to other board members held in less esteem?
Nope, that would be other people too.

An attempt to have a frank discussion about music? How "immature" of me.
Did you even READ this thread, "nickalicious"? Maybe you'll pay attention if I use yr email address to track down yr personal information.

to o. nate - who said I was trying to stop him? as I said before - "he can listen to whatever he damn well pleases."

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you mean point #3, Oops? I think that's what makes P73 unique, at least on Vocal Studies, is the treatment of vocals.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

once again: you called Dan Perry immature, and I said he's used to being called that. are we clear now?

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(hi, Dan!)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

(Blithely ignoring the rest of this thread, which makes me embarrassed, frankly.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Frankly, I think the original poster would enjoy the Vaudeville Villain album, perhaps. The production on it is far from the standard p-funk/rock/jazz samples.

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah,you're right jaymc. I dunno why I applied #4 to Prefuse.
Though he way he treats vocals is just one of the things that mark his stuff as 'experimental'. (can we think of a new word for this concept?)

― oops (Oops), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't much like the word "experimental" either, maybe "out" is better. Basically I think the idea is music that sacrifices the goal of accessibility and puts a premium on trying to fuck with as many of the variables as possible - to create something that will make people scratch their heads and say WTF?

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 17 November 2003 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

ddrake, my comment towards you was much more addressed at your lame putdowns than anything else. Totally fucking cringeworthy. The error was in not singling out anyone else because a good 85% of this thread reads like a transcript of the time trials for the 2004 Cringelympics.

Sadly, because life is deeply unfair, I have no interest or desire in going back and singling out everyone on the thread who was acting the ass, so you'll have to settle for the following:

ATTENTION ILM PLEASE EAT A GIGANTIC DISEASED DICK OK THX

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 17 November 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I HAD any "putdowns"?

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha ha I laugh and I laugh

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I would like to hear what serialist hip-hop might sound like.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 17 November 2003 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

vol 1, vol 2, vol 3?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 17 November 2003 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 17 November 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

STEE-V RIKE "Hip Hop For 18 Rappers"

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 17 November 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

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