How good is 'American Boy' by Estelle?

"Rick Astley, great stuff, I just bought it on my way here. You heard it?"

"Never. I mean, I don't really like singers."

"Not a big music fan, huh ?"

"No, I like music. Just he's... Rick's's too... black sounding for me."

The Rupa Huq piece is bollocks through and through but I'm going to give the Enrique attack dog the benefit of the doubt that he didn't just assume that piece was written by a bloke.

(Meanwhile thank you The Reverend for making the post upthread that I was too restrained to make).

no prob, bro

this thread is so beautiful...I never even saw any of that Brit race stuff until just now wtf

also lol @ banriquit "dragging this thread back on topic" and talking about some totally unrelated shit

The answer to the thread title is... THAT GOOD

man shut the fuck up "preview of the matrix 12"

-- and what, Saturday, 29 March 2008 00:09 (1 hour ago)

It's funny because Astley doesn't sound black - in the same way that Michael McDonald doesn't sound black. They are white singers singing in a black idiom, but subtleties in their delivery and the tonality of their voices make it apparent they are white.

i figured Astley was black when i first heard the song on the radio. like i said above some people out there probably make the same assumption when they hear 'Mercy' and even 'Chasing Pavements' (tho it may be harder these days to hear such artists before you see them).

Nor does the record sound particularly American.

disagree here too! it seemed pretty obvious what SAW were trying to do but i thought they pulled it off well - it may be harder to see that with so much hindsight. let's not forget they fooled a hell of a lot of people with 'Roadblack' too (big support from soul boy purists and the like, oblivious to who was behind it - but that wasn't a colour issue, just a credibility one - there was a difference).

Roadblack

worst freudian slip ever?

lol

i figured Astley was black when i first heard the song on the radio

i was six or seven when it came out -- i honestly don't think this kind of think was part of the way i thought about music. i don't think i had an opinion one way or another, and obviously i had no sense of 'credibility' at that time.

i agree with dubmill that astley was not in any way "trying to sound to sound black", and with the implication that to think about music that way, as huq does, is usually stoopid geirthink. how does it apply to the massive number of bands influenced by dub reggae?

'never gonna give you up' sounds like what it is rly. as does the (significantly worse) 'chasing pavements'.

tbh i think there is a lot of racism in britain -- though not so much of the hyperbolic, psychotic kind brought up in lex's article -- but the state of the charts is one of the last places i'd look for evidence of it.

big support from soul boy purists and the like

Yes, but cloth-eared ones in my opinion. Similarly I will always remember Robbie Vincent raving about Galaxy's 'Dancing Tight' in 1983, saying what a marvellous antidote it was to all the drum machines and synthesizers that were taking over soul music (whereas 'Dancing Tight' is in fact drum machine and synth all the way).

'Never Gonna Give You Up' is a great record but I still maintain it doesn't sound particularly American. That's not hindsight because I remember hearing it on the radio at the time and thinking the same thing. The verse is fine but when it goes into the chorus it's pure jaunty SAW pop (something about the chord progression, perhaps?).

With regard to 'Roadblock', I've actually forgotten what SAW wanted people to think it was. Was it supposed to be a rare groove or the work of American funkers of the time? Either way it's a record I've never liked.

i think 'roadblock' sounds pretty unlike any records being made in the US in 1987. it's all a bit reined in, kind of thing; the guitar is pure english ponytailed session dude. you could argue it's trying to sound like go-go ('cross the tracks'), with the sax.

It is like shit Go-Go, yeah. One of the least artistically successful SAW tracks, ironically. Serious "SS Paparazzi" is the better instrumental.

Yes, but cloth-eared ones in my opinion

well i'm going largely by a Trevor Nelson anecdote here, make of that what you will. he can't have been that old at the time either tho and may have just been quoting from elsewhere himself. i guess with 'Roadblack' it was only a cred issue as it sounds like a lot of UK jazz-funk from 5-15 years earlier - which was the point I guess.

i hated NGGYU at the time, but liked 'Stop To Love' and 'Criticise' - maybe the latter two did sound more modern and exotic (American) and NGGYU too much of a tribute to a less fashionable sound.

but i was only 9 myself so it's not like i had all that worked out at the time. still "oh i thought he/she would be black", based on what you hear is always interesting (to me) in terms of whether it begets disappointment (credibility/authenticity issues), relief (dubious as that may sound, pleasure from expectations being confounded in this way or validation/confidence issues ala 'good that a white artist can do this as well as (not better than) a black artist') or indifference (probably the ideal).

too bad Huq herself can't tell the difference between Robert Plant and Robert Palmer...she also negates the success of Cornershop and White Town in the same year as Kula Shaker (one hit wonders tho both may be considered).

the kula shaker stuff was bad carmodizing.

Notice when Family Guy did "Never Gonna Give You Up" it was Brian singing it, not Cleveland.

Just sayin'.

I always has Cleveland down as more of a You Spin Me Round kinda guy.

she was just on later with jools, followed directly after by adele. dunno why she had a deejay in her band - sounds crap, and kano was esp pointless (and offbeat) on american boy.

Still the best thing on that miserable programme, but seeing as the competition was Adele, Black Keys and James Taylor how difficult was that?

"Fire and Water" > "American Boy"

I don't think I heard Astley on the radio prior to seeing the video so never had the opportunity to test the "does he sound black or white?" thing. Tell you what, though, one person whom I was genuinely surprised about - Richard Darbyshire. Convinced he was black when I heard the eponymous Living in a Box record on the Sunday chart run-down, v. surprised on seeing him on TOTP the following Thursday.

Black Keys

Black Kids actually, who were brilliant live. Nice people too.

but I still maintain it doesn't sound particularly American

C'mon, Dubmill - the bassline is lifted from Colonel Abrams' "Trapped" for chrissakes!

Still the best thing on that miserable programme, but seeing as the competition was Adele, Black Keys and James Taylor how difficult was that?

You forgot The Only Ones, with Peter Perrett appearing as Syd Barrett's partially mummified corpse. Estelle, not much of a singer, live. But she came in at the last minute, so maybe a bit under-rehearsed.

id like american boy if it was a bit more lush. hopefully one of the remixes has correct this.

*corrected

Black SHIT morelike

I mistook The Only Ones for Lenny Henry.

I'd like "American Boy" more if Lush had done it.

but I still maintain it doesn't sound particularly American

C'mon, Dubmill - the bassline is lifted from Colonel Abrams' "Trapped" for chrissakes!

I did mention the similarity to that record, but just because you model a track on something American doesn't mean that the end result sounds American. If you compare the two the Colonel Abrams is much harder and grittier - not necessarily in the mix or eq of the sounds they have in common, but the mood created by chord progressions and other sounds (eg NGGYU has swathes of sweet strings instead of the thinner, cold synth strings on 'Trapped'). 'Trapped' sounds catchy but a bit menacing. NGGYU sounds much more jaunty, cheerful and inimitably SAW.

Estelle, not much of a singer, live

I didn't see her TV appearance but it doesn't surprise me. Some of her singing on the record is a bit iffy. It doesn't matter of course because it's a great record.

The Only Ones were frightening.

A bit shit, really, the Only Ones, weren't they, in general?

No they fucking weren't, they were ossum

Anorexic Ronnie Wood squeaking the vocals was a bit much, aye.

Pleasant but kind of meh. I spent her whole Jools Holland performance last night transfixed by her enormous eyes and slightly Alien-esque hairdo.

Sorry, Tom, I remember Ossum very well, you're not getting away with that - they were on The Beechgrove Garden every Christmas.

"Estelle, not much of a singer, full stop"

she can carry a tune, just about. shes just lucky she has pretty robust tunes to carry.

I liked "Whispering Grass."

American Boy would be better w/a Windsor Davies rap fer shure.

Aha, <i>that's</i> what "American Boy" reminds me of...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CK-f-Hhij4

(And if you can't be arsed to click, it reminds me of Dr Buzzard's "Cherchez La Femme".)

Massive xpost, but SAW's "Roadblock" was one of THE big tunes at Notting Hill Carnival in 1987, and this was after SAW had been identified as the artists. I was there for several hours on both days, wafting between the sound systems, and it was second only to "Cross The Tracks" in ubiquity. Make of that what you will!

Still reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDNAQAYhvmo

follow the b-line solely and it sounds like a whole bunch of stuff

follow the song and dr buzzards no question

BUT in any case -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XMKkIRcKsA

will i am channelling ca$hley cole for the sequel pwns this out of the water on every possible level omg

why has no one commented on how this is exactly the same backing track as will i am's impatient? (then again i dont know if will i am produced american boy or not - maybe he did, the cheap bastard).

He produced both. He is a cheap bastard.

he did produce it, and you could've saved yourself the trouble of posting with a quick ctrl f + "impatient" of the thread.

(xpost)

its ok. it wasnt any trouble.

http://www.zingassociates.co.uk/images/zing-lemons.jpg

this song sucks

-- J0rdan S., Friday, 28 March 2008 10:11 (1 month ago) Link

what the hell is wrong with you

this is for people who like sara bareilles