Coltrane was inventing on the stand all the time & doing so inside solos. One of Miles innovations involved spontaneous group improvisation, would that provide a reason it was so noticeable?
― Stevolende, Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:58 AM Bookmark
Not sure what you mean by this, esp. "spontaneous group improvisation." Group improvisation goes back to new orleans jazz, and there are varying degrees of it in almost any kind of jazz. Do you mean the particular way he loosened the bebop structure with the 60s quintet? I don't think he so much innovated group improvisation as played around with the parameters of group improvisation.
But yeah I tend to think that a lot of Coltrane's innovation was in terms of what the soloist does (though he pushed other boundaries in his last few years), whereas Miles was more interested in changing the group dynamic.
― hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 February 2011 18:18 (thirteen years ago) link
stevolende, do you also post on IHM?
― sarahel, Thursday, 10 February 2011 20:21 (thirteen years ago) link
So I've been listening to less jazz in recent weeks. Overdid it a bit, I think. But now I'm spinning some records again. Anyone heard the following? Saw these over the weekend for pretty cheap:
Coltrane, John - Living SpaceColtrane, John - The John Coltrane Quartet PlaysHancock, Herbie - Maiden VoyageSun Ra - Space Is the Place
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Monday, 21 February 2011 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link
you need the herbie and the sun ra! go buy now! quick!!!
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 21 February 2011 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link
The Herbie is a '60s Blue Note thing, looks and probably sounds v different from '70s space-fusion Herbie. And the Sun Ra is on Impulse—his highest profile release I've come across to date.
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Monday, 21 February 2011 21:24 (thirteen years ago) link
it is, but its terrific blue note hard bop
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 21 February 2011 21:26 (thirteen years ago) link
that sun ra is prob my fave
yeah dude maiden voyage is a quintessential record of that genre, it is a requirement to at least hear it at some point
― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 04:30 (thirteen years ago) link
Well hey, I picked it up today for $4 so rest assured I'll be hearing it soon!
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 04:33 (thirteen years ago) link
$4 seems so cheap for a quality used jazz CD, but that shit is still like, a fuckin 6" Subway sandwich. Is Maiden Voyage better than a 6" turkey on wheat w/ all the veggies? Where is Whiney G. when I need him?? ;_;
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 04:34 (thirteen years ago) link
lmao
― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 04:35 (thirteen years ago) link
I only skimmed the thread, but i didn't seen anyone mention the Duke Ellington album ...And His Mother Called Him Bill. It was in dedication to his arranger who past called Bill Strayhorn. My co-worker burnt me a copy. I would suggest this album to ilxor if he likes jazz music that calms you and makes you reflect on life.
***My only sheepish contribution to this thread***
Runs Away
― Okay Pet Shop Boys Aren't That Bad. (lilsoulbrother), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 05:49 (thirteen years ago) link
Ahh...was curious how you were doing with this, ilxor. Thanks for the update.
My Coltrane obsession has kind of gone full-bloom. I've been slowing making my way through the Impulse! records (Africa/Brass through A Love Supreme) and just finding myself getting more and more sucked in. Loving the way each album becomes more and more ingrained and enjoyable with each listen. That self-titled 1962 album has become a favorite. Keep reaching for that one, it seems. At first, the mellow and traditional vibe of the Duke Ellington and Johnny Hartman records (as well as Ballads) kind of threw me for a loop, but I find them to be the perfect album to either begin or end a day with.
Such great amazing music and to imagine how I am not even beginning to scratch the surface is kind of daunting and fantastic.
― xtianDC, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:15 (thirteen years ago) link
Also, I recently picked up a vinyl copy of Coltrane's "Om". Woah. That is some ish for which I am not quite sure I am ready...
― xtianDC, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:23 (thirteen years ago) link
That self-titled 1962 album has become a favorite
Yeah, that's one of my favourites too! 'Out of this World' is absolutely gorgeous.
― ka£ka (NickB), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:30 (thirteen years ago) link
Jealous
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:43 (thirteen years ago) link
Coltrane's Meditations is popular, but I don't see First Meditations (For Quartet) mentioned much. I think I like that one even better, up there with 1964's Crescent, with Transition just behind it, and then The John Coltrane Quartet Plays and Sun Ship. All are essential 1965 Coltrane. The 1962 Coltrane is nearly perfect too. Hard to go wrong with him.
― Fastnbulbous, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:58 (thirteen years ago) link
lol I thought everyone hated Om. For some reason it is the only Coltrane I have on vinyl
― ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:09 (thirteen years ago) link
the Impulse Space is the Place (assuming that's what yr talking about - several different records have been released under that title) is great. hits a bunch of his different styles, with the Arkestra arguably at their peak
http://www.united-mutations.com/r/sunra_spaceistheplace2010_sutrolp.jpg
^^^like I just got this recently and it is entirely different from both the official film soundtrack and the Impulse album
― ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:10 (thirteen years ago) link
I Like Om a lot
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:11 (thirteen years ago) link
"Space is the Place" on Impulse! was my introduction to Sun Ra. It's lots of fun, especially the title track, but I wouldn't say it's his best album.
― Pisle of dogs (seandalai), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:28 (thirteen years ago) link
I don't think it's his best either - but it's not a bad sampler/overview
― ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:30 (thirteen years ago) link
The actual soundtrack on ESP or whatever is better.
― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:33 (thirteen years ago) link
wouldn't even really call "maiden voyage" hard bop, more post-hard bob or something, more open, less bluesy. it's fantastic, of course.
― tylerw, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:37 (thirteen years ago) link
so happen to be listening to Ascension at the moment... is it me or does the beginning quote Blue Train...?
― ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:58 (thirteen years ago) link
My copy of Space is the Place (yes, on Impulse) looks like this:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YZSKZHCRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link
great album
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 18:57 (thirteen years ago) link
Good old Space 15 The Place
― ka£ka (NickB), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:03 (thirteen years ago) link
Strange Celestial Roads is still one of my favourite Sun Ra records. It's also one of the most laid back things I've heard him do. It lacks the overt out-thereness of a lot of his stuff and it all potters by at quite a sedate pace, but I'm really quite happy to just sit and listen to it and drift off into the far reaches of the galaxy. What else did he do along the same sort of lines?
― ka£ka (NickB), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:08 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^great album. in a similar vein:
Sleeping BeautyOn JupiterLanquidity (altho this does get a little out/uptempo in places)
― ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link
i recommend you get http://cgi.ebay.com/SUN-RA-ANGELS-DEMONS-PLAY-THE-NUBIANS-NEW-CD-/130489873842?pt=Music_CDs&hash=item1e61cd75b2
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:15 (thirteen years ago) link
Cool, thanks guys!
― ka£ka (NickB), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:25 (thirteen years ago) link
that was to ilxor btw
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:26 (thirteen years ago) link
I was gonna say - that is not a particularly mellow/lilting pair of Sun Ra albums...
― ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link
haha yes, I hope he didn't rush out to buy it expecting some quiet disc
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link
Wayne Shorter - Speak No Evil (1964)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ezi4gCqxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
I've not had enough time for jazz in February (finally picked up some new releases, started a small writing gig that's eaten up some of my time, etc.) but here's a quick review of a very nice album that I've been playing.
This is a really gorgeous album. Overall an easy listen: there's a sense of relaxation, cool and confidence throughout. The playing is well-paced, never forceful. Strong melodies abound. To hear Shorter playing alongside Herbie Hancock (whose playing here sounds similar to his same-era Blue Note album, Maiden voyage) is a treat.
I get a strong sense of composition from these songs. Everything seems very much thought out and measured, not in an overcooked sense, but in a master songwriting way. I could be wrong (and I've not read any background on this album yet) but this doesn't have a sense of meandering improvisation like Coltrane or Ornette Coleman do on many of their recordings. And this is in no sense "masturbatory" jazz: Shorter never seems like he's showing off his chops, even though he's clearly got them. This is a master of his instrument using his skills toward something far more measured, elegant and beautifully restrained than others would have the discipline to do.
Beyond all of that, I get a very real sense of joy from these recordings. It sounds like Shorter, Freddie Hubbard (trumpet), Herbie Hancock (piano) and the other fellas are having fun here. It makes me happy to hear these songs. I don't hear much tension in this album... simply the joy of playing music.
Rating: ✰✰✰✰
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 15:27 (thirteen years ago) link
Freddie Hubbard (trumpet), Herbie Hancock (piano)
Haha, can't believe I listed this stuff out at the END of the review. I think I wrote this part first, then added to the beginning and forgot to take out the lol obvious full name + instrument statements here.
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 15:30 (thirteen years ago) link
Nice review, ilxor. Glad you're keeping this thread going. I need to hit the shop and pick up that used copy of Juju I saw recently. I read somewhere that with Speak No Evil Shorter was really branching out with new players, as he was trying to disprove those who dismissed him as simply a Coltrane-acolyte (on the preceding Juju he is backed by Tyner/Garrison/Jones).
NP: Alice Coltrane, Ptah The El Daoud (this is really doing it for me this am)
― xtianDC, Thursday, 24 February 2011 16:56 (thirteen years ago) link
Cool, I'm watching for Juju... pretty sure that's counted among his "great" records, right?
Love that Alice Coltrane album, need to post some thoughts on it. Played it endlessly the night before a 50 mile trail run a few wks ago... perfect way to get in the right frame of mind to run for 12 hours. :)
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:04 (thirteen years ago) link
Woah, that is some intense running! So have you found any jazz albums in particular that are well suited for a running playlist?
― xtianDC, Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:11 (thirteen years ago) link
Actually, I haven't uploaded my jazz albums to iTunes/iPod yet, for a few reasons. Mainly that I don't have enough hard-drive space at the moment (UGH) but also, I'm enjoying listening to them in long-form mode, not on shuffle.
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:15 (thirteen years ago) link
dude, ilxor, i don't think i've ever heard a wayne shorter record that wasn't great. his initial run of 6 or so records is pretty flawless. my favorite is either the all-seeing eye or adam's apple.
― Brad Nelson (BradNelson), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:17 (thirteen years ago) link
OT: ilxor I haven't checked the running thread for a long, long time cos I've been injured and didn't want to fill it up with dreary moaning but this -> "50 mile trail run" is hardcore & props 2 U
― ka£ka (NickB), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:18 (thirteen years ago) link
his initial run of 6 or so records is pretty flawless.
Talking about his run of solo records starting in '64 or so, all on Blue Note?
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:23 (thirteen years ago) link
hell yeah
― Brad Nelson (BradNelson), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:34 (thirteen years ago) link
ilxor, your description of shorter is very insightful and otm. I think he's always slightly underrated as a composer, and what he does as an improviser is always informed by senses of composition and restraint, even though it's also very searching and expressive.
― The Corner Stander, The Suggest Ban Hammer (Hurting 2), Thursday, 24 February 2011 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link
shorter was pretty unstoppable in the 60s -- his stuff with the Jazz Messengers is great, too.
― tylerw, Thursday, 24 February 2011 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link
Need volunteers for the resumed http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=79981#unread
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 28 February 2011 16:46 (thirteen years ago) link
that is ILX0RS: JAZZ IS THE TEACHER. YEAH, IT'S A JAZZ THING >> THE ILM JAZZ LISTENING CLUB! [NEW CHOICES EVERY WEDNESDAY!] btw
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 28 February 2011 16:47 (thirteen years ago) link