Ashlee Simpson 'Bittersweet World'

"xp yeah but the "why are we persecuted??" stuff from grown men listening to music that is listened to pretty much exclusively by pre teens"

This really isn't the case though. The vast majority of Ashlee listeners are not preteens (I doubt my nieces even know who she is). Preteen music listeners are a VERY refined and unusual niche. I imagine that the only Rolling Teenpop-discussed music that they listen to is Hannah Montana and the Jonas Brothers. And over the course of the past year, "See You Again" has attained mainstream radio play outside of Disney Radio. So grown men have heard plenty of Hannah Montana at this point.

The biggest thing that frustrated me about the response to the teenpop thread was that most of the time we were discussing music that either wasn't targeted to kids at all (Ashlee, Clarkson, Duff's last record), or was ignored by them (Tisdale, Pruitt). And most of the artists we discussed were in their 20s or older.

So when you realize that the material being discussed isn't really different from the pop music which has always appealed to teenagers and adults alike, from Elvis to the Beatles to Madonna, you start to wonder why the response to discussions of it is so vitriolic.

Oh hey, getting back on BW for a second, I might have missed it above...but Tim, when you listen again I'm interested in your thoughts on "Never Dream Alone," which to me is this weirdly calculated approximation of an "Ashlee-type closing ballad" (other two albs the closing ballads are "Undiscovered" and "Say Goodbye," two of my favorite songs by her) that doesn't really hit me. (But it also seems more indebted to a kind of theatricality -- musical theater-based sincerity, or something, which I tend to be hugely skeptical of for some reason -- that rarely speaks to me.) A few other people, Greg for instance, are really moved by it, but I'm still not hearing it.

Actually, I can imagine how Hannah might be a bad influence but prolly not as that girl did

That is, when you contrast Hannah's sheer peppiness and can-do against life on earth, I'd imagine the negative friction might really grate on actual teens.

Sure, you had a similar perky thing with The Beatles, but there was also a healthy cynicism.

My niece, who's 14 HATES Hannah for essentially these exact reasons. No surprise, she favors Marilyn Manson. MCR and the like.

Yeah, according to my cousin, 13-year-olds listen to a LOT OF EMO. Which is NOT POP (but for some reason you're also not allowed to call it "emo"). When "Smells Like Teen Spirit" came on, I asked her if it was pop. She couldn't believe I'd asked, and then her brother, a few years younger, said "It's heavy metal! Gawd..."). By liking the teenpop stuff as discussed on ILM, I am quite out of touch with the vast majority of its assumed target audience.

My niece, who's 14 HATES Hannah for essentially these exact reasons. No surprise, she favors Marilyn Manson. MCR and the like.

One of the things I've learned from the other folks in my program is that kids generally like watching/listening to people 3-4 years older than them, because they identify with a slightly older age group than they themselves are in. If you're actually Hannah Montana's age, she seems immature. She's actually targeted at tweens and even pre-tweens, apparently.

I think what's interesting about the changing sound of teenpop is that it tracks larger stylistic changes in pop culture--so teenpop sounded like pop-punk when being a rockstar was a cool thing for tweens to want to be. I don't know quite where to put the dark electropop--maybe it has something to do with Rihanna? Or they caught on to the new romantic revival 7 years late? Maybe the ice princess thing is in now.

I'm waiting for a Disney-friendly version of The Knife.

I mean, yr Alex in NYCs will still dismiss Rihanna as trash,

Please don't speak for me. I like a bit of Rihanna's music.

Ashlee, meanwhile, is, was and e'er shall be: crap.

I don't know quite where to put the dark electropop

Make plenty of room for randomness, too, with lots of artists "experimenting" in this direction with very different co-writers: Vanessa Hudgens on a bonus cut on her first album, Veronicas on their album (which makes more sense -- I mean they co-wrote a t.a.t.u. song and obviously understand the similarities), even someone like Katy Rose releasing a one-off that she apparently recorded several years before.

Also with R&B tending more in this direction anyway, and obviously informing (and more often than not "counting as" itself) the teenpop stuff, too.

Also, my teenpop albums of the year so far (fwiw) are Ashlee's, Lil' Mama's, and Dolly Parton's. And Taylor Swift's Live from Soho EP if it counts. If that says anything about where it's at generally, I dunno. I have a hard time believing Cassie's new album won't be good, since her last one is probably my favorite overlooked-at-the-time album of...probably the decade, but definitely the last couple of years. I feel like September and Taio Cruz should both sort of count, too. (Most of these aren't in the running for top 5.)

</unsolicited opinion>

Yeah, sorry for being a dick, Brainwasher. I have my own thoughts to post, but i'm going to sift through these others first.

I haven't heard the whole album but I just watched the "Outta My Head (Ay Ya Ya)" video. It's a cool video but I don't think that song works for her voice at all; I spent the entire time wishing Gwen Stefani was singing it instead. I can't buy into the song given the way she sings it. I think one reason why this whole false sense of innocence thing kept coming up with respect to Ashlee upthread is because to some people she sounds like she doesn't actually understand or feel the emotions behind some of her songs, like a relatively happy, well-adjusted person play-acting at being mad.

Conversely, this faux-naif musical style works really well on songs like "Pieces of Me" or "L.O.V.E.", or songs like the snippet of "Boys" on the Amazon.com site.

Do you feel the same way about I Am Me? I think she sounds pretty legitimately spiteful in that one. "Pieces of Me" is a little faux-naif, but it's "faux" in relation to the rest of the stuff on that album, I think. And even that song is more complicated than it seems at first...for one thing "pieces of me" is both shorthand for "I'm complicated" (very Avril, whatever) but also about what happens when you hit the bottom crash and break into a thousand pieces. Which means she's still broken. And he doesn't fix the pieces -- she's just happy she has more than nothing, which is also the premise of similarly lilty and blink-and-you-missed it profound track "Better Off." I think that's the sentiment that you'll never get in Avril or most of her derivatives -- a sense of resigned joy at the thought that things aren't worse. (That isn't something that screams "teenager" to me, in fact think a lot of adults have trouble really capturing that feeling, and I think it's a common thread through a lot of Ashlee's songs.)

I think "Outta My Head" worked like this for me: (1) kind of hate it, not understand it. "Faux-naif" is fairly accurate. (2) Try to sync it up with what I already understand about Ashlee's music, and finding no real precedents for it ("L.O.V.E." is supposed to be silly and doesn't have any cartoonish angry stuff in it, "Boyfriend" more rock) decide that she's doing something intentionally weird, not sure what, but whatever, it's catchy. (3) Realize, after liking the song's catchiness, that she's doing old and new style simultaneously, and still pulling it off (don't think any of the other songs on the album can claim this). I can imagine a point where you stop at (1) or (2), moreso than (3) which is, for lack of a better word, a generous way of listening to it. (I don't think it's reading too much into it, but I also admit I don't expect very many people to read that far "in.")

Simpson's ideal for "Outta My Head"! If she has influences on this track, it's Lene Lovich and Terry Bozzio; she wastes no time on the Gwen Stefani comparisons. For one, she's realer than Stefani: the husk and faint, grainy quality in her voice help immeasurably. She and her producers do an expert job of simulating frustration. The track is simultaneously clipped and expansive.

If she has influences on this track, it's Lene Lovich

Yeah, like Ashlee's EVER FUCKING HEARD of Lene Lovich. Be real please.

you've asked her?

Betcha a hundred dollars she hasn't.

Influence has little to do with whether an artist has heard or read about her forebears.

how can you be influenced by something you don't know exists

It's as vague as something in the air. Or the source material gets appropriated so often that you may not be able to locate it (since it's Bo Diddley day, I'd be really surprised if Anabella and the other members of Bow Wow Wow studied their old Bo 45's to record their "I Want Candy" cover). It's genes! In the same way that, somehow, you have your Great-Great Aunt Susan's nose even though she's been dead 20 years and you've never met her. I could cite Harold Bloom's theories on the anxiety of influence, but that'll take too long...

Anyway, those of us who write or record music know this -- how many times will someone say "This bit reminds me of Richard Yates" or "This first-person monologue sounds like Proust" even though you've never read the bloody writers.

*write fiction

"Intentionality" is mostly jive. Just cuz an artist SAYS she listened to so-and-so doesn't mean it's there either. But it can be! At any rate, I don't see how this discounts the possibility that Simpson conjures Lene Lovich.

I wouldn't use the word "influence" - that referes to a very particular relationship between the artist and his/her 'forebears'. Just because you read something and that "How Proustian!" doesn't mean that that person is "influenced" by Proust.

and think***

But the only way to determine "influence" is to see the forebear's referents in your work. If Simpson sounds like Lovich, then she must be influenced by her; any hesitation to acknowledge this reality sounds like condescension ("what can this dumb chick know about Lene Lovich?")

Nice floundering.

It's not like Lene Lovich is particularly well-known name. Hell, Avril didn't know who Bowie was. Ya think Ashlee's brighter than her? I don't.

Now if you want to make the argument about whether or not Ashlee's producer has heard of Lovich, that's a different matter entirely.

You must see her on the Upper East Side fairly often if you're that familiar with her iPod selections.

Now if you want to make the argument about whether or not Ashlee's producer has heard of Lovich, that's a different matter entirely

What difference does it make? She essays Lovich, and succeeds. Plus, she's credited as a songwriter.

(xp) Well no, I totally disagree. Just because you hear Lene Lovich doesn't mean that it's there in her work, you're coming at it from a totally different POV. And oftentimes an artist's influences don't manifest themselves in such obvious ways... It can be an approach toward making music/writing rather than stylistic or aesthetic similarities...

(I've never heard of Lene Lovich so I can't say whether or not Ashlee sounds like her or whatever, I'm just talking about this idea of "influence" in general)

Just because you hear Lene Lovich doesn't mean that it's there in her work,

Well, now we're entering into the realm of subjectivity, which is alright with me.

xp I have no idea whether Ashlee is "influenced" by Lovich, and yeah, I don't see why that would matter. She sounds like Lovich sometimes, regardless. Maybe she's influenced by music that was, in turn, directly influenced by Lovich. Or maybe she and Lovich share similar direct influences, and use them in similar ways. Who knows. But she's got Lovichy moments either way, so it's a moot point, right?

Maybe she's influenced by music that was, in turn, directly influenced by Lovich

This is probably the closest we've come to the mark here. Thanks, Chuck.

Incidentally, if Ashlee's music is even a tenth as compelling as Lovich's, I feel compelled to give it a listen. I have my doubts.

Well, it is at least a tenth as compelling as Nina Hagen's, if that counts.

(Actually, she's better than Nina Hagen.)

As for Lene, I don't think I like anything on the new Ashlee album as much as "Lucky Number," but I definitely like a couple songs as much as "New Toy."

"Incidentally, if Ashlee's music is even a tenth as compelling as Lovich's, I feel compelled to give it a listen. I have my doubts."

Wow. So this whole time you've been excoriating Ashlee, you hadn't even listened to her music?

I think Lovich sorta creted template for amorphously arty New Wave singing that influenced everyone from Aimee Mann with Til Tuesday to [insert electroclash femme here.]

So it might be influence by second hand osmosis.

er--"created". I've no idea what she 'creted'.

I've realised what prevents me from loving this album is almost solely the airbrushing on the vocals (simultaneously multitracked and fainter). Ashlee's voice on the first two albums is so strong that it lifts up even the weaker tracks; whereas here some tracks that would be emotional powerhouses using her old style now feel too controlled and manicured.

Still don't like "Hot Stuff" though!

Dabug, I really like "Never Dream Alone", though again it would be stronger if the vocals weren't so honeyed. It's just odd enough that it doesn't feel calculated except structurally (i.e. "we need a ballad to close out the album").

Wow. So this whole time you've been excoriating Ashlee, you hadn't even listened to her music?

I've heard her previous attempts, I've just not heard the new one.

And normally, I'd rather stick an angry fiddler crap in each ear than subject myself to the worthless poopy-pop product that gets stamped with her name. But invoke Lene Lovich and I feel obligated to hear it.

Your cunning plan is working, guys!

I hear that scat porn has a lot of Lene Lovich influence.

stick an angry fiddler crap in each ear

Alex, honestly, this sounds really painful.

>I've realised what prevents me from loving this album is almost solely the airbrushing on the vocals (simultaneously multitracked and fainter).

OTM. The other CD it was real audio spectacle the way her voice consumed the pop metal track meat, like serious confessional carnivore shit.

Now they've sort of gouged away the midrange where her personality lives in favor of pimping and compressing the really high end where dogs listen to things. If she couldn't sing, okay, but.

It's the total opposite with the Veronicas CD.

True - even when they're both singing today their particular inflections and tone-of-voice (singular) are really clear.

both singing together even.

"Resigned joy" isn't what I'm going for above. It's something more like "joy in the face of disaster." Manages to feel the disaster without losing the joy. In contrast, Marit Larsen is disaster in the face of joy -- some seriously intense self-loathing going on beneath the carnival. (Ashlee's new carnival is joyous in its own way, but there's not much disaster in it -- though there's a healthy dose of trainwreck.)

Her position seemed to be: "My life is fucked up, but this is to be expected and it's preferable to the kind of shallowness I would need to adopt in order not to be fucked up."

(part of the relative weakness of "Beautifully Broken" was that it was a bit too straightforward in this regard - show don't tell, Ashlee!)

Sorry if this has already been covered, but i don't have time to keep going through posts...

i dont think brainwasher's point was that ashlee's opinion of what the music is about matters as far as authorial intent, it was an attempt (right or wrongheaded) to give some perspective, to say that sometimes the point of a song is to be fun and brainless. i dont like analyzing shit sometimes - i dont spend hours writing up essays on why 'say yeah' by wiz khalifa is fun, or what his audience thinks about it, its just FUN. Like, in my writing i want to be balancing the emotional, overall impact w/ some intricate nerdery but here it seems like its just all this weird left brained mega-male analysis without any perspective on PURPOSE. Not neccessarily authorial purpose, but purpose as perceived by the listener

What do you mean by "I don't spend hours writing up essays on why [x song] is fun"? Are you saying that ilx pop critics spend too much time trying to discover what aspect of a song causes feel+ings of joy? Or that they become too invested in the lives of the artists, trying to connect fun/sad/x emotion songs to the fun/sad/x emotion events happening in the actual lives of the performer (often incorrectly using lyrics as a source when those words could very well fictional, not to mention written by another person)?

If you're referring to the first possibility, I agree, if that actually happens. I'm not a huge fan of in-depth music analysis, esp. when it comes to dissecting a song (that's kinda like lit class, when you spend twenty minutes talking about a couplet). But if you're talking about that second possibility, I completely disagree w/ yr hate. Example:

By comparison, Nu-Ashlee makes more sense as a teenpop star. Which is probably (hopefully) good for her market share, and neither necessarily good nor necessarily bad for her music, but perhaps what I miss is the sense of frission generated by her former Courtney-Love-gone-pop strategy. Which is kind of unfair for Ashlee, but there you go. Still, I have to listen to this album a lot more before any of these reactions are anything more than provisional.

The question that raises seems super interesting to me. Why is she suddenly creating the music she was supposed to be making all along? Has she grown up? Does she now like Timbaland's sound, or was she driven by money? I think that it's wrong to look at this sort of thinking as music criticism. It's more like music journalism...Perhaps people rely on music too much when trying to discover the answer (to their credit, though, you can figure out some answers through music...for instance, I think it seems quite obvious when you listen to Justin Timberlake that he actually likes crafting amazing pop music...I hear the passion).

Instead of using music we could just, y'know, set up an interview and ask her. And again, to the credit of these people you're bashing, many of them do interview the pop stars they write about...Ultimately, to me, it's more of an interest in people than it is in music (though I...they...do enjoy the music, too, obv.)...And why these people instead of Craig Finn, Sufjan Stevens, et al? First off, we enjoy there music more. Second, I guess I think there are probably more layers to a pop singer who is sorta forced to live a fucked up life filled with paparazzi, stalkers, etc. than there are to an indie rocker who plays a show, gets in a bus, smokes pot, plays cards, checks his myspace, plays another show and goes to boring desk job.