How good is 'American Boy' by Estelle?

lol we totally derailed this thread.

rolling "Miami sound"

cassie - thirsty

BW: as if the Brits hadn't already completely derailed it.

true.

cassie - thirsty

-- The Brainwasher, Friday, March 28, 2008 4:29 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

somebody send a smoke signal tape store's way

That Cassie song is quite alright.

xp:hahaha

cassie herself is quite alright....

^^^ENLIGHTENING^^^

I do have to lol at Kanye using Briticisms.

round here we say birds, not bitches.

ok anyway to drag this back on topic, here's some even more stupid bullshit:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/rupa_huq/2008/03/paint_it_black.html

Then further back in pop time there was the Stock Aitken and Waterman teaboy Rick Astley who legend had it was discovered singing along whil doing the dishes at the record company. Initial releases by him were distributed on mysterious white label 12-inch singles (this was the 1980s). Consequently, he was thought to be an implicitly black philly crooner. When it emerged that he was actually a pasty-faced whiteboy from Warrington, his cred factor plummeted although he still sold well. The incident begs the question, would "safe" Rick Astley have been signed to the SAWmill as singing act, or teaboy even, if he'd have been a different colour? The argument propagated by Estelle suggests that there are double standards at work.

what the fuck is he trying to say about rick astley here? i'm totally at a loss. the accusation that SAW are so racist they wouldn't even employ a black person as a teaboy is presumably actionable.

the last paragraph is really badly worded in terms of making a case -- it uses daily mail language -- "ethnic minorities need only apply" -- to try to make an anti-racist case. and of course it overlooks class.

Wow!!!
This trucker is gonna have hits.
Never heard him but no doubt will.

What are the drums like? Snare hopefully not a soggy peach?

Does it do any sweep picking?

That Astley/SAW piece is pretty silly on a number of levels. One is that SAW worked with a number of black artists, eg Princess, so clearly the answer is yes they probably would have signed Astley if he was a different colour. Two, Astley wasn't 'pasty-faced'. He was reasonably good looking and marketable as a pop star.

It is true, I think, that the initial promo pressing of 'Never Gonna Give You Up' was disguised to appear as if it was an American import, but I think SAW just wanted to encourage the people on the soul scene into thinking it was a proper black American record so it would build up the buzz on the track. It was just stage one in a marketing campaign aimed at getting the record into the charts.

It's funny because Astley doesn't sound black - in the same way that Michael McDonald doesn't sound black. They are white singers singing in a black idiom, but subtleties in their delivery and the tonality of their voices make it apparent they are white. Nor does the record sound particularly American. It's a good record which, although it has some similarities with the style of Colonel Abrams' 'Trapped', nevertheless sounds very SAW.

"Rick Astley, great stuff, I just bought it on my way here. You heard it?"

"Never. I mean, I don't really like singers."

"Not a big music fan, huh ?"

"No, I like music. Just he's... Rick's's too... black sounding for me."

The Rupa Huq piece is bollocks through and through but I'm going to give the Enrique attack dog the benefit of the doubt that he didn't just assume that piece was written by a bloke.

(Meanwhile thank you The Reverend for making the post upthread that I was too restrained to make).

no prob, bro

this thread is so beautiful...I never even saw any of that Brit race stuff until just now wtf

also lol @ banriquit "dragging this thread back on topic" and talking about some totally unrelated shit

The answer to the thread title is... THAT GOOD

man shut the fuck up "preview of the matrix 12"

-- and what, Saturday, 29 March 2008 00:09 (1 hour ago)

It's funny because Astley doesn't sound black - in the same way that Michael McDonald doesn't sound black. They are white singers singing in a black idiom, but subtleties in their delivery and the tonality of their voices make it apparent they are white.

i figured Astley was black when i first heard the song on the radio. like i said above some people out there probably make the same assumption when they hear 'Mercy' and even 'Chasing Pavements' (tho it may be harder these days to hear such artists before you see them).

Nor does the record sound particularly American.

disagree here too! it seemed pretty obvious what SAW were trying to do but i thought they pulled it off well - it may be harder to see that with so much hindsight. let's not forget they fooled a hell of a lot of people with 'Roadblack' too (big support from soul boy purists and the like, oblivious to who was behind it - but that wasn't a colour issue, just a credibility one - there was a difference).

Roadblack

worst freudian slip ever?

lol

i figured Astley was black when i first heard the song on the radio

i was six or seven when it came out -- i honestly don't think this kind of think was part of the way i thought about music. i don't think i had an opinion one way or another, and obviously i had no sense of 'credibility' at that time.

i agree with dubmill that astley was not in any way "trying to sound to sound black", and with the implication that to think about music that way, as huq does, is usually stoopid geirthink. how does it apply to the massive number of bands influenced by dub reggae?

'never gonna give you up' sounds like what it is rly. as does the (significantly worse) 'chasing pavements'.

tbh i think there is a lot of racism in britain -- though not so much of the hyperbolic, psychotic kind brought up in lex's article -- but the state of the charts is one of the last places i'd look for evidence of it.

big support from soul boy purists and the like

Yes, but cloth-eared ones in my opinion. Similarly I will always remember Robbie Vincent raving about Galaxy's 'Dancing Tight' in 1983, saying what a marvellous antidote it was to all the drum machines and synthesizers that were taking over soul music (whereas 'Dancing Tight' is in fact drum machine and synth all the way).

'Never Gonna Give You Up' is a great record but I still maintain it doesn't sound particularly American. That's not hindsight because I remember hearing it on the radio at the time and thinking the same thing. The verse is fine but when it goes into the chorus it's pure jaunty SAW pop (something about the chord progression, perhaps?).

With regard to 'Roadblock', I've actually forgotten what SAW wanted people to think it was. Was it supposed to be a rare groove or the work of American funkers of the time? Either way it's a record I've never liked.

i think 'roadblock' sounds pretty unlike any records being made in the US in 1987. it's all a bit reined in, kind of thing; the guitar is pure english ponytailed session dude. you could argue it's trying to sound like go-go ('cross the tracks'), with the sax.

It is like shit Go-Go, yeah. One of the least artistically successful SAW tracks, ironically. Serious "SS Paparazzi" is the better instrumental.

Yes, but cloth-eared ones in my opinion

well i'm going largely by a Trevor Nelson anecdote here, make of that what you will. he can't have been that old at the time either tho and may have just been quoting from elsewhere himself. i guess with 'Roadblack' it was only a cred issue as it sounds like a lot of UK jazz-funk from 5-15 years earlier - which was the point I guess.

i hated NGGYU at the time, but liked 'Stop To Love' and 'Criticise' - maybe the latter two did sound more modern and exotic (American) and NGGYU too much of a tribute to a less fashionable sound.

but i was only 9 myself so it's not like i had all that worked out at the time. still "oh i thought he/she would be black", based on what you hear is always interesting (to me) in terms of whether it begets disappointment (credibility/authenticity issues), relief (dubious as that may sound, pleasure from expectations being confounded in this way or validation/confidence issues ala 'good that a white artist can do this as well as (not better than) a black artist') or indifference (probably the ideal).

too bad Huq herself can't tell the difference between Robert Plant and Robert Palmer...she also negates the success of Cornershop and White Town in the same year as Kula Shaker (one hit wonders tho both may be considered).

the kula shaker stuff was bad carmodizing.

Notice when Family Guy did "Never Gonna Give You Up" it was Brian singing it, not Cleveland.

Just sayin'.

I always has Cleveland down as more of a You Spin Me Round kinda guy.

she was just on later with jools, followed directly after by adele. dunno why she had a deejay in her band - sounds crap, and kano was esp pointless (and offbeat) on american boy.

Still the best thing on that miserable programme, but seeing as the competition was Adele, Black Keys and James Taylor how difficult was that?

"Fire and Water" > "American Boy"

I don't think I heard Astley on the radio prior to seeing the video so never had the opportunity to test the "does he sound black or white?" thing. Tell you what, though, one person whom I was genuinely surprised about - Richard Darbyshire. Convinced he was black when I heard the eponymous Living in a Box record on the Sunday chart run-down, v. surprised on seeing him on TOTP the following Thursday.

Black Keys

Black Kids actually, who were brilliant live. Nice people too.

but I still maintain it doesn't sound particularly American

C'mon, Dubmill - the bassline is lifted from Colonel Abrams' "Trapped" for chrissakes!

Still the best thing on that miserable programme, but seeing as the competition was Adele, Black Keys and James Taylor how difficult was that?

You forgot The Only Ones, with Peter Perrett appearing as Syd Barrett's partially mummified corpse. Estelle, not much of a singer, live. But she came in at the last minute, so maybe a bit under-rehearsed.

id like american boy if it was a bit more lush. hopefully one of the remixes has correct this.

*corrected

Black SHIT morelike

I mistook The Only Ones for Lenny Henry.

I'd like "American Boy" more if Lush had done it.

but I still maintain it doesn't sound particularly American

C'mon, Dubmill - the bassline is lifted from Colonel Abrams' "Trapped" for chrissakes!

I did mention the similarity to that record, but just because you model a track on something American doesn't mean that the end result sounds American. If you compare the two the Colonel Abrams is much harder and grittier - not necessarily in the mix or eq of the sounds they have in common, but the mood created by chord progressions and other sounds (eg NGGYU has swathes of sweet strings instead of the thinner, cold synth strings on 'Trapped'). 'Trapped' sounds catchy but a bit menacing. NGGYU sounds much more jaunty, cheerful and inimitably SAW.

Estelle, not much of a singer, live

I didn't see her TV appearance but it doesn't surprise me. Some of her singing on the record is a bit iffy. It doesn't matter of course because it's a great record.

The Only Ones were frightening.

A bit shit, really, the Only Ones, weren't they, in general?

No they fucking weren't, they were ossum

Anorexic Ronnie Wood squeaking the vocals was a bit much, aye.

Pleasant but kind of meh. I spent her whole Jools Holland performance last night transfixed by her enormous eyes and slightly Alien-esque hairdo.

Sorry, Tom, I remember Ossum very well, you're not getting away with that - they were on The Beechgrove Garden every Christmas.

"Estelle, not much of a singer, full stop"

she can carry a tune, just about. shes just lucky she has pretty robust tunes to carry.

I liked "Whispering Grass."