Joy Division: Classic Or Dud?

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Is it a grayish blue? I have a vinyl copy of Substance, so I hear "Transmission" as being gray partly because Substance has a gray cover. (The green on the cover is like the green of LED lights.)

That said, there's something about JD's sound that lends itself to being heard as gray or grayish blue (as opposed to, say, purple or pink). I'm not sure why, offhand, one hears the guitar and bass sounds this way. Perhaps the "starkness" of the production makes the listener feel like he or she is in some large, urban space. There's also the robotic character of the music. Ian Curtis' voice is very robotic on that track. And robots, of course, are gray (or silver).

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 19 September 2004 05:19 (twenty-one years ago)

The Still album cover was gray, too, wasn't it?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 19 September 2004 05:21 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah i associate them with gray, but a dark metallic gray

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Sunday, 19 September 2004 05:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you associate them more with black when you listen to Unknown Pleasures, or white when you listen to Closer?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 19 September 2004 05:48 (twenty-one years ago)

haha I wz thinking about the goth question above last night and I wz gonna say they are grey to me not black but Ian Curtis suicide made the music darker.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 19 September 2004 08:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Am, I think you're pushing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction here. I was trying to describe a Dizzee Rascal song to Ned and came up with the phrase "it's the one with the sped-up Kanye beat grafted onto the navel of a supermodel" (ie, it's a deeply sexy, sensual-sounding soul loop that's been sped up so the vocals are chipmunked) and Ned knew instantly which track I was talking about. The evocative can have just as much power and meaning as breaking down the components and doing a theoretical analysis (and 7 times out of 10 it will be more powerful and meaningful because most people aren't interested in breaking down a piece of music to understand WHY certain sonic tricks and chord progressions produce certain emotional responses).

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Sunday, 19 September 2004 11:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Obvious point alert, but I think there's room for both approaches in the space of the same review. I don't like reviews that operate exclusively in the realm of vague-but-pretty-sounding metaphors, but nor do I like exclusively technical ones - oddly both extremes are most annoying in dance music reviews, but maybe that's just because I feel "close" to the reviewer's tricks. I don't think its tautological to include, say, both Dan's description and his parenthetical justification for that description. In fact that's the *best* way in the long term because then you really get a feel for how Dan's mind works in constructing those metaphors. But if the metaphor is presented in isolation and is too remote from how the music actually sounds that can be difficult.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 19 September 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Hm, well, anything I could add at this point would be rambling perhaps. But it's not a grayish blue, I'll note. Tim's point is well observed and generally speaking I do try and balance off description with elaboration in my reviews though I don't think I do so consciously.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 19 September 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

NB. Ned I think you generally do too. Though I've read so many of your allmusic reviews plus everything here and on other fora that I could probably decode your metaphors without thinking (sort of like how I "hear" subtitled foreign films in English).

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 19 September 2004 12:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh heh heh. "He's talking about 'arcing overdrive' again, it MUST mean that he's referring to the use of an 808 pulse and an envelope filter..."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 19 September 2004 12:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Generally speaking the two approaches go together anyway. I find it hard to construct anything but the most hackneyed, cliched metaphors about the sound of rock records that I like because I haven't invested as much time scrutinising their sonics as I have with electronic stuff.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 19 September 2004 12:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Interestingly, I've remembered Ned's description of "Transmission" since he posted it three years ago - I think it even kind of added a dimension to how I hear the song or at least managed to neatly express something I hear about it. I found it to be a very evocative image. I don't think it's vague or mythic. It implies, as he said, focus and tightness, cool efficiency, unwavering forward momentum, clarity.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Sunday, 19 September 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Gosh, why thank ya Sundar. That's quite a compliment!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 19 September 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Ned's reviews are a pink ray of starlight as seen thru a prism made of opal and fairy dust. hard and soft at the same time like a gently roasted turtle.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 19 September 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Scott Seward's hair is a flowing river of gold cascading down a mystical landscape of green grass, deer and black squelching demons from the underworld of HARD ROCK POWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!

http://www.totalmetal.ru/upload/reviews/pic226.jpg

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 19 September 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

And Ned, while I enjoyed your live Joy Division review on AMG, and was impressed by how it read like it was in A-flat major -loved the grave, formal phrasing - it ultimately suggested a rondo wearing a correct but unconvincing mourning veil of C minor.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 19 September 2004 14:02 (twenty-one years ago)

NOW you're just showing off.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 19 September 2004 14:06 (twenty-one years ago)

hee hee hee!

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 19 September 2004 14:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I've been listening to Schubert all morning. OMG, How goth was he?! Die Winterreise is batcave central!

Check it:

Numbness

Vainly I search the snow
For the footprint she left
When arm in arm with me
She passed along the green meadow

I long to kiss the ground
Pierce both ice and snow
With my burning tears
Until I see the soil beneath

Where shall I find a blossom
Where find green grass?
The flowers are dead
And the turf has a wan look

Is there then no memory
That I may take from here?
When my sorrow is stilled
Who shall tell me of her?

My heart feels dead
Within it her image gazes coldly
When my heart thaws again
Her image too will flow away

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 19 September 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Stewart said **Here's a funny thing: I don't know what Dr. C's recollections are, but I don't recall JD actually having had that much of a "goth" following at the time when they were actually still going (not compared with e.g. Bauhaus or Siouxsie and The Banshees or even The Damned for that matter, anyway) - mainly the New Brutalist / "big black overcoat" brigade that also used to follow the other Factory bands and the likes of Echo & The Bunnymen, Killing Joke, PiL, etc.** etc.

I used to follow them around the country and there were various gangs, mainly from Manc/Burnley/Preston/Macclesfield areas + a few of us from the other side of the pennines like me. There were no goths whatsoever, but hang on...were there really goths in 1979/80?? Didn't that all coalesce 3 or 4 years later. All the folks I used to talk to that followed JD were either the long overcoat brigade, football hooligans/beer boys + the odd mad Belgian.

**"Love Will Tear Us Apart" is the one Joy Division song I don't "get" all the hype about because it's a good melody but there's NO HARMONY WHATSOEVER IN THE HOOK WTF WHY ARE THE BASSLINE, SYNTH, AND IAN CURTIS' VOICE ALL FOLLOWING THE SAME MELODY LINE **

Bollocks! Listen to the second synth line (playing 5ths I think)

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Sunday, 19 September 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm mostly pissed because there's no steady bassline to imply a chord structure

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 19 September 2004 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean yes there's a bassline but since it just follows the melody line it just sounds weak to me, you know?

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 19 September 2004 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

And you can tell me it's supposed to "supply tension" or "be different" or something but, as much as I love Joy Division, I don't think this song merits the hype it gets. Then again I don't like Closer either.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 19 September 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I just know that one year from now I'm going to absolutely love this song and kick myself for ever saying this stuff

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 19 September 2004 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

And you can tell me it's supposed to "supply tension"
The tension is in the one-chord repetitive-strum/sustained synth chord bridge I mentioned above.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 19 September 2004 16:15 (twenty-one years ago)

yes I know, I was just saying that preemptively, not in reference to anything specifically upthread

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 19 September 2004 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

"Then again I don't like Closer either."

*Gulp*

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 19 September 2004 16:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Curt1sss, FYI, there is a thread for people who don't like Closer:

Taking Sides: The Mission v. The Sisters of Mercy

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 19 September 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

SEW-AR-DI-NAAAAAAAAAA

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 19 September 2004 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

**as much as I love Joy Division, Then again I don't like Closer either**

Too right. They definitely sold out by then. I like 'Gutz' best. Thx Bye.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Sunday, 19 September 2004 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

scott that was excellent.

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Sunday, 19 September 2004 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

"...were there really goths in 1979/80?? Didn't that all coalesce 3 or 4 years later."

There were certainly proto-goths about then - people taking stylistic cues from Siouxsie and Dave Vanian and starting to add make-up and vampire chic to the basic punk look and I'm pretty sure the word goth(ic) was in use to decribe them.

As I recall there were generally a lot of different movements starting to emerge in the wake of punk - the long overcoat brigade, the new brutalists, the futurists, the Blitz kids, the proto-crusty / proto-traveller hippy / anarchist punks.

A lot of these movements split up and merged with eachother in diffrenet combinations and disappeared and Goth was one of the ones that emerged out of these different elements.

Of course The Batcave didn't appear 'til a little later and I'm not sure there were any bands actually describing themselves as goth at the time - although there certainly were some who were subsequently adopted by the goths and some that would later describe themselves as goth.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 20 September 2004 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Will that do you, Doc?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 20 September 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

It sounds plausible! I wasn't a GOFF or a proto-goff and I really can't remember when goth-people started appearing.

I was busy flapping around in a long overcoat.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 20 September 2004 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

As a proud new-brutalist, I sneer at your flapping long overcoat with my new flat-top haircut, black jeans, black bomber-jacket and Robot creeper shoes with DM soles.

We do go to an awful lot of the same gigs 'though....

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 20 September 2004 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I've just realised when my interest in fashion stalled.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 20 September 2004 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Black (or any coloured) bomber jacket = major fashion crime!!

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 20 September 2004 13:47 (twenty-one years ago)

This may be why you don't see to many (other) new brutalists around these days.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 20 September 2004 13:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually new brutalism was a fashion nightmare:
- rocakbilly haircuts
- skinhead jackets
- mod trousers
- ted shoes with DM soles
- goth colour scheme

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 20 September 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh and we used to listen to follow Killing Joke everywhere - can you imagine?!?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 20 September 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

*counts down towards the looming appearance of an Alex in NYC on the horizon*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 20 September 2004 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Joy Div/Factory types used to be called "long macs" or the "long mac brigade" up our way. Joy Div + Cab V written in felt-tip pen on khaki gas mask case bought from army surplus store.

The first thing that couyld be fairly be called "Goth" in the uk that I remember was UK Decay and "positive punk". Posipunk!! Stu P Didiot!

Joy Div were great, and I can honestly say that few other bands have meant as much to me over the years (creak, creak)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 20 September 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

All true - although of course UK Decay started out as (The Resitors) a pretty straightforward punk band.

Let's not also forget The Pack (who morphed into Theatre Of Hate), The Mob, Rudimentary Peni, Zounds....

I was never too sure what these bands were supposed to be so "Positive" about 'cos they all semed quite gloriously pissed off to me!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 20 September 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i guess for me it's that "goth" (or whatever somewhat vague notion i have of "goth") seems to be about those things that i least appreciate in this and other bands. the whole despair-chic thing has always annoyed me, and a lot of JD lyrics strike me as laughable when i actually bothered to parse them (very rarely).

― amateur!!st, Monday, 20 September 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

ten months pass...

from neworderonline.com:

Interview with Annik Honoré

The Belgian music magazine, Side-Line, has interviewed Annik Honoré for
their 52th Summer issue. Honoré had a relation with Ian Curtis up until the moment he died in 1981. She has always refused talking about the matter in public although Curtis ex-wife was not exactly flattering about her in interviews over the years. She has granted an exception to Side-Line Music Magazine. In the interview Honoré talks about the why she decided to speak openly and what Ian meant to her.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 5 August 2005 23:25 (twenty years ago)

Woah. This is news...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 5 August 2005 23:41 (twenty years ago)

Trying to pronounce "52th" is breaking my brane.

And Yes, very big news. I wonder what language it's in or if there's a translation. I'll try to track it down.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 5 August 2005 23:53 (twenty years ago)

Fifty-tooth, obviously.

― Telephonething (Telephonething), Saturday, 6 August 2005 01:01 (twenty years ago)

Fascinating. Side-Line's website is in English:

http://www.side-line.com/index.

― stevo (stevo), Saturday, 6 August 2005 07:09 (twenty years ago)

Just to return to the premise of this thread (since I wasn't around these parts when it was first discussed and I'm resentful and envious of that so fuck yers), how could there even be a question of Joy Division being dud? I honestly can't envisage being this intransigent about any other band, but Joy Division are so unquestionably, self-evidently, objectively, definitively CLASSIC that it seems like a pointless academic exercise spawned by either boredom or scattershot malice to even hint otherwise.

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 7 August 2005 02:57 (twenty years ago)

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