it does explain a lot when defenders of this album are all "oh i don't care about lyrics" though
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:36 (thirteen years ago) link
lex...
― unemployed aerosmith fans I have shoved (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:37 (thirteen years ago) link
"let's have a toast to the douchebags" seems pretty celebratory to me?
(i actually really like that idea for a chorus and also the melody - i just don't like the way he semi-sings it/the arrangement/the verses/so many underwritten lines/the length on the album)
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, December 15, 2010 9:33 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
ditto both parts of this post
― some dude, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:37 (thirteen years ago) link
Try listening to the entire chorus sometime; it ends with "Baby I got a plan/Run away fast as you can", which casts the entire rest of the chorus in a much more sarcastic light.
Seriously, it's a little difficult to take the hatred seriously if you don't actually understand what the not-very-complex song is saying.
― "Kiss Players♥" (DJP), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:38 (thirteen years ago) link
Ioannis, we're not talking about some album with long guitar jams and like 20 words per song, rap albums and particularly this one basically have the word count of a short novel
― some dude, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:40 (thirteen years ago) link
everything Kanye's said about "Runaway" makes me feel like the celebratory aspect is at least as much sincere as it is ironic and self-deprecating
what's "rockist" (another word that we need a moratorium on) about thinking lyrics are important?
lady, if you have to ask...
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:41 (thirteen years ago) link
"to get that rockist, lyrics-prioritizing monkey off yr backs, methinks."
this is fucking hip-hop.
― irish xmas caek, get that marzipan inta ya (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:42 (thirteen years ago) link
hip-hopist ^^^
― "Kiss Players♥" (DJP), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:43 (thirteen years ago) link
i never received that particular memo, Al. must put a call in to hip-hop HQ, quick like.
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:44 (thirteen years ago) link
it's not just "thinking lyrics are important", it's the things ppl are saying about the lyrics ("show don't tell!" "he's saying the same things he's said before!") — what's "rockist" about all this is that it repeats a common gesture — which goes beyond rock/pop, following the high culture/mass culture distinction wherever it rears its head, re: genre fiction or metal or whatever — that sets (a very narrowly-conceived notion of) artistic 'originality' over and against conventionality/craft, with the latter not seen as basically empty, neutral, and valueless
― unemployed aerosmith fans I have shoved (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:44 (thirteen years ago) link
"if I wanted to hear about (corpses/dancing/kanye) and whatever I could listen to a thousand other (metal bands/pop songs/kanye albums) instead of this one"
― unemployed aerosmith fans I have shoved (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:46 (thirteen years ago) link
tbf that is not Lex's argument, and I don't think it's the one some dude is really standing behind even if his rhetoric veers in that direction occasionally
― "Kiss Players♥" (DJP), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:47 (thirteen years ago) link
it may not be Lex's argument but I don't think it's asking too much of him to figure out what "rockist, lyrics-prioritizing monkey" refers to
― unemployed aerosmith fans I have shoved (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:50 (thirteen years ago) link
oh wow that looks pretty bad out of context
xpost But the point is that his craft isn't very good this time either - the rhymes themselves are sloppy. It's not like he's a consistently solid MC who doesn't get his due - quite the opposite. Isn't artistic 'originality' Kanye's whole goal here? If anyone's encouraging a rockist reading of this record it's him.
― The baby boomers have defined everything once and for all (Dorianlynskey), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:50 (thirteen years ago) link
lol snowy
― "Kiss Players♥" (DJP), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:52 (thirteen years ago) link
I can't tell if the "jerkoffs/work off" part is just there to rhyme, if he genuinely believes he needs to cut down on his perfectionism (which could explain the amateurish vocal) or if he's passive-aggresively suggesting he's one of those oliver stone heroes who treats his wife badly because he's too busy doing his goddamn, world-important job.
― da croupier, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:54 (thirteen years ago) link
oh, he totally is. and he's likewise totally full of shit in that respect.
xps
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:54 (thirteen years ago) link
haha--fast thread moving to fastly.
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:56 (thirteen years ago) link
i can't work out what ioannis and snowy think lyrics exist for
also, it's obvious that i'm not insisting that lyrics have to be full of ~meaning~ or that generic and good are mutually exclusive (one of my favourite hip-hop tracks of 2010 is diamond's "lotta money" for heaven's sake, but they have to work on some level, and imo kanye's don't for the majority of MBDTF.
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:59 (thirteen years ago) link
music comes first, lyrics second (and sometimes not at all).
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:03 (thirteen years ago) link
I wonder what the rock/pop division even looks like from where Kanye's standing — I mean he has to know that this album is "not pop" in the sense that, y'know, the singles don't sound like other singles that ppl are listening to — which is no biggie, he's already gone there and then some with 808s, 'heartfelt' 'personal' 'artistic' choices trumping audience sensibilities — but it's weird because here, again, private and public get all jumbled up, so that in the end it's hard to know who Kanye sees as "putting up with my shit for way too long" vs. calling him a motherfucking monster
like he's addressing the 'pop music audience' to tell them how frustrated he is by their codependent relationship. but it never quite boils over into a full-blown argument, so maybe that's where some of y'all feel let down.
which leads me to something else I'm getting from the album that I wonder if other people maybe aren't: it doesn't sound lazy or phoned-in, it sounds angry. maybe just straight-up hurtful. I mean, the hook on "Gorgeous" ("I can feel it slowly slipping away from me / I'm on the edge so why you playin'? [...] I will never ever let you live this down") seems to more-or-less explicitly tell the haters in the media 'If I kill myself, it'll be your fault!' — the question being, I guess, whether Kanye does it with more or less self-awareness than a teenager yelling at his parents
― unemployed aerosmith fans I have shoved (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:04 (thirteen years ago) link
i can't conceive of separating them like this. when i hear the music i also hear lyrics, i can't tune one or the other out (unless they're actually, like, unintelligible, which sadly isn't the case here).
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:06 (thirteen years ago) link
Admittedly I am always way more into the sounds than I am the words (deeply ironic for a semi-professional chorister). I have said in the past that I don't care about lyrics but that isn't really the case; it's more that I have to really, REALLY dislike the lyrics in order for them to negatively impact my enjoyment of a song. Most times, they are value-neutral. When I really dig them, they elevate the song to another plane.
― "Kiss Players♥" (DJP), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:09 (thirteen years ago) link
but yeah he was going "i can use my arrogance as a STEAM to power my DREAMS" on his first album and "why you think me and Dame cool? we assholes!" even before that, don't know why people are treating "Runaway" as this brash zeitgeist grabbing statement and not just the same thing he's been saying for almost a decade.― some dude, Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:22 PM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark
― some dude, Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:22 PM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark
this nails it tbh, none of this is new, it's just bigger and uglier; 'runaway' is practically unlistenable unless you listen to stuff in order to unpick it on the internet
― ohhhh we plop champagne (history mayne), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:10 (thirteen years ago) link
lex: I guess I think lyrics — at least the kind that I like — are primarily performative, and can therefore easily 'misfire' based on the listener's perception of the character/performer pronouncing them. so, for example, Lil B's lyrics actually ~do~ seem like the grossest most misogynistic shit ever if somebody totally misses the satirical intent of a line like "I fuck her face like her husband" or "Bitches suck my dick cuz my chain look like lightning" or whatever
― unemployed aerosmith fans I have shoved (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:12 (thirteen years ago) link
this is going to blow your mind HM, but not everyone dislikes ugly music
like, no one ever sat around going "I am in the mood for the dulcet tones of Nitzer Ebb"
― "Kiss Players♥" (DJP), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:12 (thirteen years ago) link
sure, im just saying
― ohhhh we plop champagne (history mayne), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:14 (thirteen years ago) link
fwiw among the autogoon people i'm one of the least lyric-focused and more into drums/production/hooks/overall sound. but i mean, i'm not just saying "Kanye's a bad rapper thus this album is bad," i don't really love the sound of the album either.
― some dude, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:15 (thirteen years ago) link
metal machine music to thread.
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:17 (thirteen years ago) link
lol let's not go crazy and overstate the ugliness of this album
― "Kiss Players♥" (DJP), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:17 (thirteen years ago) link
and i'm saying his rapping is pretty much irrelevant. it's the tone of voice i'm interested in, not the nitty-gritty specifics that voice is mewling over.
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:19 (thirteen years ago) link
xp
j/k
yeah i just don't know how you can really ONLY listen to the tone of his voice and not process the words that are being said. that's just weird.
― some dude, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:24 (thirteen years ago) link
i mean i can see listening to a Twista or Nelly or ODB album and going "i have no idea what he just said but the way he said it is a blast!" but Kanye, especially on this album, is so emphatic and deliberate about hammering home every punchline and 'profound' observation, it's built into his deliery.
― some dude, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:26 (thirteen years ago) link
it's the tone of voice i'm interested in, not the nitty-gritty specifics that voice is mewling over.― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:19 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:19 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark
someone's been reading their mallarme
― ohhhh we plop champagne (history mayne), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:26 (thirteen years ago) link
and i'm saying his rapping is pretty much irrelevant.
you can think that if you like, but it's hardly "rockist" or odd in any way to care about rapping on a rap album
it's the tone of voice i'm interested in
this is an even worse look than his words tbh - relentless and increasingly nasal whine that's way too high in the mix. the sound of his voice is what i disliked most about the album, by three-quarters of the way through i wanted nothing more than for kanye to just STFU
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:27 (thirteen years ago) link
palm meet head. hi-de-do.
well, tov is not the only thing that matters to me here, just sayin' it's what i'm prioritizing.
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:31 (thirteen years ago) link
also, i'm a KISS fan. simple really.
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:33 (thirteen years ago) link
I dunno, sometimes the lyrics don't actually matter that much and the pleasure in listening is just being able to ride an MC's flow*. If lyrics were really the be all and end all then no one would ever listen to an rap in languages other than your own.
*Once again this doesn't really work as defence of Kanye.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:36 (thirteen years ago) link
what's interesting about Ye here--as opposed to Lohan, Britney et al--are the aesthetic choices he consciously makes time and again: Crimson sample on one track, say; "Echoes" derived piano tinkling on another; guests galore stinking up the joint just so; you name it. as i see it, he's the ringmaster, the album is his big top, and the guests his freaks/performers. of course, he's also the star attraction, which is where things get kinda weird. and for me that's where all the talk re: persona an' shit comes in. but, yeah, if you want, there's nothing inherently more daring this or cutting edge that going on on any specific piece of music here either. it's the whole shebang in toto, rather, that's really captivating (hey, just like in an good prog-rock record. well, waddya know?). and i loved Britney's Blackout-era weirdness, too, btw.
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:02 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
good post but doesn't this seem like, appreciation-by-checklist - like, got the weird prog sample, check, got the massive posse cut, check, got the homage-paying track, check...
I still don't know how these all add up to 'greatest album of the year'
― dayo, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:43 (thirteen years ago) link
Well... it doesn't! I like the album and I wouldn't even rank it as a top 10 album of the year.
― "Kiss Players♥" (DJP), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:44 (thirteen years ago) link
hey, you're not loannis!
― dayo, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:44 (thirteen years ago) link
;)
― dayo, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:45 (thirteen years ago) link
what can i say, it's an art-rock thing. for me it makes sense in its entirety rather than as some amalgamation of assorted pop-cultural detritus Ye just put together one weekend--but like bernard snowy (i think) said, this is not a collection of radio-friendly pop tunes. i mean, Kanye is going back and forth and contradicting himself all over the thing, anyway (tho probably nowhere near as much as i am here), so why worry whether the damn thing coheres in this that or the other respect. so, um, yeah, i do dig it nonetheless.
anyone catch the number of that bus?
― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:58 (thirteen years ago) link
hah - I mean, you seem to be criticizing the way some of us are criticizing the album for being too rockist or w/e - that's why I'm curious as to what avenue you're approaching this album from, maybe I could try to listen to it from your perspective
anyway it seems that a lot of people are more interested/in love with the idea of the album than the album itself
― dayo, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 16:05 (thirteen years ago) link
im not sure why but i find the people who dislike the album as strongly as i do to have some of the worst arguments against it
kanye's narrative abilities were never a strength in the first place -- hes just sapped the laconic humor from them that used to entertain me & infused them with this bitter self-awareness that isnt as self aware as he thinks it is. i dont think that means someone cant make an argument that his lyrics are in fact part of the package of why they like the record, or argue that you are missing the pt if you say 'show dont tell!'
― *plop*ism rules (deej), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 16:08 (thirteen years ago) link
― dayo, Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:05 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
this is the kind of bullshit that annoys me about much of the criticism in this thread
basically i dont buy the criticisms of his lyrics themselves, i buy criticisms of why this strategy fails big picture -- theres nothing wrong w / trying narrative styles that are tell-dont-show if you make it work -- so criticize why this doesnt work
― *plop*ism rules (deej), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 16:09 (thirteen years ago) link