why do people on ILM hate "live through this" ?

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Dude, don't mess with Pappa Cheddy. He'll beat you with his walker.

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 18:35 (nineteen years ago) link

Holy shit am I late in opening this thread again.

1. Ian McCulloch is cooler than you'll EVER be, Anthony.
2. Anthony is not fit to sift through Ian Astbury's manful dung.
3. Courtney Love ain't nothing but a star-fucking opportunist. Full stop.
4. Dave Grohl does not exploit his tenure in Nirvana.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Cobain's biggest talent was for offing himself at just the right time guaranteeing his place in the "suffering genius" pantheon and sparing us the prospect of yet another album/tour that Just Doesn't Quite Equal Nevermind.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:05 (nineteen years ago) link

Phrases like "manful dung" are usually NOT permitted on threads I create, but I'm making an exception for you just this once, Alex.

― Vic (Vic), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:06 (nineteen years ago) link

Sorry, Vic, it won't happen again.

Oh, frankE, sorry...I didn't realize you were being sarcastic way upthread.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:11 (nineteen years ago) link

I think Courtney's early music was somewhat good, back in the day and her live performance I saw in 1993 was great. This widespread "visceral" reaction to her as an unsavory personality gives many music-lovers a bad name. No one has to like her music, obviously, but pleeez...

Let's remember that countless MALE band-members are REGULARLY STAR-FUCKERS TO THE EXTREME, not to mention groupie-FUCKERS EXTRAORDINAIRES. How often is the term "star-fucker" associated with men, I wonder

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:14 (nineteen years ago) link

or let's just say the main prob people seem to have with Courtney is her opportunism combined with a popular opinion that she has little talent. How many guys and gals in rock possess those two traits? Thousands, maybe?

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:34 (nineteen years ago) link

That she has no talent is debatable. That she is a start-fucker is not. I wouldn't mind her being a star-fucker if her music was better but it's not (of course, that's simply my own opinion). Beyond all that, however, I find her utter lack of self-awareness, her ubiquity and her absence of restraint to be the most repugnant things about her.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:39 (nineteen years ago) link

haha - her absence of restraint!!! since when is this a bad quality in rock stars?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:41 (nineteen years ago) link

I feel like I'm looking through a microscope at two warring strands of protozoans.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:42 (nineteen years ago) link

who you callin' a protozoan¿

― dysøn (dyson), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:45 (nineteen years ago) link

haha - her absence of restraint!!! since when is this a bad quality in rock stars?

When they cross the rubicon and become parents. That's when.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:46 (nineteen years ago) link

Also, it should be noted, in interests of fairness, that Falling James Moreland of the Leaving Trains (who could be a very good band, by the way) was NEVER a star.

And Curt Kobain was a starfucker as well.

And Joan Jett covered "Starfucker" by the Stones on her best album!!

― chuck, Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:46 (nineteen years ago) link

And Curt Kobain was a starfucker as well.

I wasn't defending Kurt. Ever.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:47 (nineteen years ago) link

I've never listened to a Courtney Love album all the way through, but I think that we can see from the fact that she didn't choose to call her band something as hippy-dippy as "Nirvana" that she has a better way with words than her erstwhile hubby. I think Hole - Pretty on the Inside is one of the wittier band name/album name combos that I've seen.

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:48 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.yotarot.com/yoimages/temperance/temperance.jpg

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:48 (nineteen years ago) link

Moderator, please reverse time and lock thread after dyson's last comment.

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:52 (nineteen years ago) link

Who's warring, Ned? No one has to agree with me. I know waht Alex NYC means about "lack of restraint"; I agree that when it's not about just going for it music-wise, it can at times put me off artists I even like. But judging famous people for whom they fuck seems mean-spirited and pointless, to me whether they're Arthur Miller or Courtney Love.

And Ned, I certainly felt a little protozoan by the time we got to Akbar. Too many Chuck Taylors = too many tequila drinks. I trust you heard about our drinking game.

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:55 (nineteen years ago) link

I find her utter lack of self-awareness

On the contrary, I think her self-obsession does yield an awareness of just how desperate/pathetic/sad she is, noted in songs from "doll parts" to newer ones like "sunset strip," AS' highlight. Add to that her knack for self-mythologizing, which few in rock can currently match, and you have an even more unique tragic figure = the self-loathing banshee who'd still shoot up first before helping her daughter with her math homework.

― Vic (Vic), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 19:58 (nineteen years ago) link

Somehow this all moved away from a discussion of "Live Through This" into personal territory, an extremely predictable phenomenon when it comes to the person in question.

Bet there's lots of other rock folk who aren't darlings of the media who shoot-up and neglect kids. We're all victims of National Enquirer syndrome.

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:02 (nineteen years ago) link

Live Through This is great!

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:03 (nineteen years ago) link

But judging famous people for whom they fuck...

You're taking the term 'starfucker' too literally. It's basically a lurid euphimism for a shamelessly name-dropping opportunist, which she irrefutably is.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:05 (nineteen years ago) link

Bet there's lots of other rock folk who aren't darlings of the media who shoot-up and neglect kids. We're all victims of National Enquirer syndrome

Stop being such an apologist for her. She courts the media.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:07 (nineteen years ago) link

Alex, just out of curiosity, if you DID like her music, would any of that sorbid tabloid stuff still matter (as far as her music goes, I mean)? You must have SOME creepy people in your record collection, right? The music world was full of them, last time I checked.

― chuck, Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:08 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah read up the thread and you'll see I mentioned that she's an opportunist. Take my use of "star-fucker" as figuratively as yours and you'll see it still applies.

Peace and love, Alex in NYC!

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:10 (nineteen years ago) link

Fair question, Chuck. There are some truly reprehensible figures in my music collection who, were it not for their music, I would feel nothing but disdain for (Gene Simmons and Johnny Ramone spring immediately to mind), but Courtney's antics seem so INTERTWINED with her music (like Vic says, her self-obsession is played out both in the tabloid media and on her records), that it simply becomes one big pacakge...one big show...which is probably just as she prefers it. She's always on stage.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:12 (nineteen years ago) link

Peace and love, Alex in NYC!

Hippy.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:12 (nineteen years ago) link

"Stop being such an apologist for her. She courts the media."

Because she courts the media doesn't mean we're not playing into her game by gnashing our mental teeth over her.

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:14 (nineteen years ago) link

Because she courts the media doesn't mean we're not playing into her game by gnashing our mental teeth over her.

Fine. She's winning then. I don't see how that makes her any less pathetic, however.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:15 (nineteen years ago) link

Alex, don't bother. I tried yesterday. It's futile...

― frankE (frankE), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:15 (nineteen years ago) link

The drinking game? I missed this. Next time, etc.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:16 (nineteen years ago) link

Alex, come to LA and we'll dance around you in a jolly FAP circle and sing whatever songs you request. NO Hole. Guaranteed.

No that I know Ned and Spencer dance I know I can trust them to join in.

Ned - Every 10 pairs of Converse Chuck Taylorss we counted = one tequila shot or margarita.

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:22 (nineteen years ago) link

*hic* Well done.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:24 (nineteen years ago) link

sorry, i was looking for some bad fan sketch of the woman in question and was stopped by the contrast between this from 2004:

http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2004/2004-03/09-love-inside.jpg

and this, from 1996:

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9612/24/courtney.love/courtney.jpg

― frankE (frankE), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:25 (nineteen years ago) link

i think she may be on something.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Except for the heavy-lidded (drug-addled?) eyes and the knowledge of what's she's been through, I actually prefer the later photo. I used to avoid girls who looked like that second pic when I was in high school.

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:31 (nineteen years ago) link

how do people hypnotize themselves into thinking that plastic surgery of that magnitude makes them look better? poor mary tyler moore.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:33 (nineteen years ago) link

yes, the self-destructiveness of the addictive (physical, substances, etc) personality is incomprehensible for most of us. though i must say she looked more like the top photo when i saw her play in '93.

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:40 (nineteen years ago) link

But see, I can understand being a drug addict. Changing your entire face is harder for me to understand.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:52 (nineteen years ago) link

But I get what you are saying. People become addicted to that just like anything else.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:52 (nineteen years ago) link

Karen Carpenter.

Or, from my layperson's pov, even the "admirable" stuff like exercise, workaholicism etc etc can be destructive. Look at certain mountain-climbers, marathon runners who neglect family, whatever to go go go, for whatever reason. I can't name names but you see what I mean, probably

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 20:58 (nineteen years ago) link

Who was that marathon guy who had a heart attack and died while running a few years ago? Jim Fixx, something like that?

― chuck, Wednesday, 1 September 2004 21:03 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah, that was twenty years back, though!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 21:16 (nineteen years ago) link

Right - it's time for another example! I'll post a message on www.everestclimbersunite.com!!

If one could die of nail-biting my ex-smoker husband would not be on this earth, today. And it's a good thing we can't die of media-worship or tv-watching. Or maybe we can. What would we do without Courtney? This thread would be alive and well with "X" album in the title and we'd be blabbing away about a culprit/person with a different name.

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 21:30 (nineteen years ago) link

The whole "Courtney's antics are intertwined with her music" line of argument is almost always directed at female not male performers - see also Tori Amos, Bjork etc. I can understand how these figures annoy people for a variety of different reasons, but people seem much more happier to make the jump from personal dislike to dismissal of the music if the performer is a female.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 21:57 (nineteen years ago) link

See: "strong, no-nonsense, take-charge guy" -vs- "bitch"

Having said that though, and agreeing with Tim wholeheartedly that women are held to a different standard then men in all arenas, Courtney is pretty fucking wacky! And annoying!

But Live Through This is great!

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 22:03 (nineteen years ago) link

yes and yes. i can't think of anything to add to these last two posts. nice one.

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 22:07 (nineteen years ago) link

was that 2004 pic taken in court?

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 22:12 (nineteen years ago) link

I heard Gene Simmons say in an interview that he thought it was great that Kurt Cobain had killed himself because it just meant 'more women for me.' And I thought that was the most asshole comment I had ever heard (which it probably was). But the more I think about it, the more I think he was right. We have wasted way too much symapthy on Jesus-Curt. Courtney Love deserves way more pity. She has earned it the hard way -- by staying alive. I hope she sticks around just to piss everyone off.
As for the music: 'Celebrity Skin' is probably the best album either of them did. 'In Utero' is a good record. 'Unplugged' is nauseating. And 'Smells Like Teen Spirit'...enough has been said!

― Star Cauliflower (Star Cauliflower), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 22:14 (nineteen years ago) link

Courtney is not as wacky or creepy or annoying as Michael Jackson, though. And he makes better records, too! (And though I basically agree with Tim and Scott 98 percent of the time, I've never heard anybody call him a "strong, no-nonsense, take-charge guy," I don't think. Though bizarrely, people often IGNORE how his antics are connected with his music. Even though they are.)

― chuck, Wednesday, 1 September 2004 22:15 (nineteen years ago) link

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