Shania Twain's Ramones T-shirt: C/D?

You'd be correct.

As for Shania Twain fan's being open to conversion. I suspect the numbers who will now investigate the Ramones will be miniscule, and they will be the diehard fans who would hang on her very word. Just have to get her in a Merzbow t-shirt next time.

Sums it up for me, Nabisco!

"This is a perfectly legitimate stance so far as I can tell,"

Glad we agree.

"...but it unfortunately requires such a paranoid vigilant monitoring of who might possibly actually enjoy what that I'm not sure it's worth it."

I wouldn't consider guessing that Shania's *NOT* a Ramones fan a "paranoid vigilant monitoring", but rather a logical assumption based on a wealth of evidence.

They've *BECOME* fashion items, you mean.

Well, yeah...true, but there's a difference between fashion and Fashion (notice the capital letter).

Meaning: there's a difference between things people happen to wear and things that you're likely to spot people like Naomi Campbell and, well, Shania Twain in.

It seems to me that the problem then isn't that Shania is wearing a Ramones shirt, it's that the "outsider" signifiers don't signify the outside anymore (which, if you'd looked at a television or magazine at any time during the 90s, shouldn't be that big a shock to you).

"This is classical music for future generations. People will be listening to [the Ramones] in 100 years time and talking about it in the same breath as Beethoven."

Ironically, I'm not fussed about Shania wearing the Ramones t-shirt, because, well, the Ramones were just as much a knowing confection of poses and assumed attitudes as any band there's ever been! You can't have your cake and eat it!

On the other hand, I DO get kind of annoyed at the kind of post-Harmony Korine fashonista appropriation of eg metal t-shirts, mullets, monsta truks etc as some emblem of how, like, suburban white trash culture is just, like, the most *authentic* and *persistent* and *kinda charming* voice in the whole sanitized and tastefully niche-marketed datasphere. And I guess the difference is that this attitude strikes me as condescending, whereas, if anything, Shania - or her stylist - is honoring and valorising the Ramones by trying to be associated with them.

As for that quote, conjecture is not proof. "Serious" musicians and "serious" music lovers know, appreciate and respect Beethoven, NOT The Ramones. In fact, to "serious" music lovers, The Ramones are no-talent hacks who played the same simple song over and over ad nauseum.

Alex I think your "wealth of evidence" is exactly the kind of overwrought monitoring I'm talking about: first off, the fact that you see enjoyment of the Ramones and making Shania Twain's music as incompatible doesn't necessarily make it so (any more than her husband's early career is so incompatible with his current one). Second if you're so down on Shania Twain it saddens me that you'd have to go around collecting a "wealth of evidence" about her just to decide whether her shirt's worth criticizing -- I suppose what I'm saying here is that none of us should be wasting our time prying inside people's heads and lives to pass judgment on whether they are or are not "qualified" or "allowed" to wear a given shirt, and no matter how sure you are in this Shania case you're setting yourself up to conduct the same inquisition with everyone, everywhere, to the point of ridiculousness.

Don't be sad, Nabisco. Given her overexposure, the wealth would collect itself without much effort.

aka "If you think the Ramones are cheapened coz Shania wears them, then they were never yours to begin with.

Nabisco: "In other words, the horror is "well before I could assume that anyone wearing a Ramones shirt was at least pretending to be punk!" So I say it's a legitimate complaint insofar as, well, yes, the shirt-based "vocabulary" of such people does in fact suddenly have less of the meaning they want it to, and I suppose they have every right to bitch about that."

aka "Actually if you think Shania can cheapen The Ramones then they're ALL YOURS."

taking sides!

I = drunk on a wednesday

blah blah blah

It's rather incongruous seeing the Ramones in that context - far more jarring than the placing of da bruddas' logo on La Twain's body, when such devices are seen any day on fashion catwalks.

Dude, don't worry. Just one more of those beers and I probably would have posted "Sean = sexy ass" instead.