ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

oh ok

i just resist the idea that there's somehow a more-righteous misogyny involved in these guys' case. i think a rapper who meets a lot of groupies observing groupies behaving like groupies is certainly offensive, but there are def ways in which it is certainly less offensive than ironic graphic rape raps, even if its more 'authentically felt'. just like the opposite can also be true.

I think I get what CAD is saying in terms of institutionalized attitudes in rap. like, you've got to suspend moral obligations if you're down with wu-tang yelling "this is dedicated to n****s who do drive-bys!" giving shout-outs to the casual murder of innocents should turn stomachs but it probably doesn't - "it's part of the game, man!" how many members of OF do you think are really living out their lyrics for street cred?

unfortunately there's no scientific formula for measuring the degree to which art reflects vs. shapes reality

^ sorry I just posted that without reading about 50 posts, it might make no sense in context w/e

in regards to 4chan, the only person i know irl who heard of these guys (besides, like, people involved in the music biz) was is a dude who's up on 4chan. i think he might have seen the Earl video even before i did because apparently it was sort of a hit there but less the exception than the norm.

he also gave me a pretty thorough explanation of what the site is and the culture and stuff and it definitely felt like a piece of the OFWGKTA aesthetic that i had been totally blind to

eIII's disclaimer applies here too

i guess maybe the divide here is that when i listen to these guys i hear young, fucked-up teenagers who are keenly self-aware of how fucked-up they are, and how their music will provoke listeners. so they have fun with it.

whereas, a lot of the time (not all) i think that dudes rappin about groupies and w/e ~actually feel that way~ about women.

but that's a personal thing, ymmv, etc

think we're all good here. this:

i mean, as some ppl got to upthread, at some point (it seems like) the dudes in OF would go "yeah, this shit IS pretty fucked up," while i can't imagine 50 or snoop ever copping to the fact that their lyrics are genuinely offensive to some people, and for good reason

is a really good point--if o.f. are still doing rape jokes in 5 years it will be sad and a waste of their talent--guess i'm saying i can handle it more because of THEIR age than anything to do w/MY age (deej we are pretty close in age i think?)

you're all just a bunch of blogging ass bloggers who chose a side based on a reaction to something you were probably ambivalent about and need something to SAY

soorrrrryyyyyyy

second google result for odd future

On Odd Future, Rape and Murder, And Why We Sometimes Like the Things That Repel Us
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2010/11/on_odd_future_r.php

the land of blog & honey

the big diff I see between OF and 4chan culture is right upfront in tyler's "bastard" - there's a sensitivity and self-reflection you don't see in the usual "I raep joek 4 the lulz" crowd

thnak you edward iii for hte perfect example of a waste of 20,00,00000 words on a blog

you're all just a bunch of blogging ass bloggers who chose a side based on a reaction to something you were probably ambivalent about and need something to SAY

― surfboard dudes get wiped out, totally, Thursday, November 18, 2010 10:46 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

says the guy with something to SAY

i guess maybe the divide here is that when i listen to these guys i hear young, fucked-up teenagers who are keenly self-aware of how fucked-up they are, and how their music will provoke listeners. so they have fun with it.

whereas, a lot of the time (not all) i think that dudes rappin about groupies and w/e ~actually feel that way~ about women.

but that's a personal thing, ymmv, etc

― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Thursday, 18 November 2010 18:42 (12 minutes ago) Permalink

this is a good pt. but otoh, the groupie thing is often a subtext of a wider lifestyle/outlook & will just get the attention of a throwaway line in a song that is otherwise abt, idk, ~real schitt man~, or maybe just wordplay about jewelry colors, or whatever else, while for this stuff being shocking is v. much ~the point~, like the misogyny takes center stage (how can it not?) so i think its v much an it-can-go-either-way thing

like i dunno that u can conclusively say one is way worse than the other

re deej: the fantasy-land suspension of reality does make a difference, somehow. it did with geto boys, too. doesn't make the stomach-churning stuff any less repellent, but it makes the whole easier to accept. like a lot of the casual misogyny in popular rap does read as legitimately and perniciously misogynist to me, but earl's shit doesn't. instead it reads like a smart kid acting retarded, which i'm okay with. though i'd be happier if he'd tone it down a bit.

CAD otm though: we will rationalize why the things we listen to are "ok"

i mean the other thing in that is ... in the 'normal rapper' worldview, this is a way a person was raised, and the rapper is simply ignorant of the wider offensive implications, while in OF's case, they obv know its 'wrong' yet persist regardless. so its easier to put the 'blame' on the artist for not making different decisions, while its hard to be like "lol u have negative views reinforced by societal expectations"

dunno why i wrote 'lol' there

don't want to start anything, but that seems to condescend to "normal rappers," you know? i kind of figure that everyone has an equivalent responsibility to know what the fuck's up. which maybe shoots my liberal relativist cred to shit, but so be it.

i dunno. there's a difference between "condescending to" and "being understanding of," though the line gets blurry. retract.

im not DEFENDING ignorance at all -- im just saying its different than intentional provocation

i mean just in terms of how you write a critical piece about the artists, to what extent society is complicit sorta relates u know?

i still dont think its a 'better' or 'worse' deal, its just different.

"to what extent society is complicit "

actually, regret writing this phrase -- implies i think its a quantifiable thing which i dont mean -- how society is complicit is different in each case

the bit about cultural complicity makes sense, but i'm not a critic, so i feel less obligation to put people's attitudes in that kind of broadminded, forgiving context, you know? i mean, i'm sure sarah palin was raised with a different set of values and realities, too (forgive the provocation, i can't help it).

didnt say anything abt 'forgiving' -- i just think that theres an apologetic strain in defense of odd future bcuz ppl think its 'just a joke' or that 'they dont really believe it' which seems kind of naive about the impact of misogyny or how misogyny operates. comparisons to politicians make no sense

i just think that theres an apologetic strain in defense of odd future bcuz ppl think its 'just a joke' or that 'they dont really believe it' which seems kind of naive about the impact of misogyny or how misogyny operates.

the casual misogyny of a lot of rap troubles me because it seems self-legitimizing, invasive, and "real". it sneaks itself into the fabric of reality by posing as something ordinary and almost inoffensive, something hardly worth getting worked up about. wildly ott horror shit like geto boys or earl is different. it calls attention to its own transgression, seems even to judge and preemptively exile itself as being "beyond the pale" (so to speak). one can't easily accept it, because it all but begs for outraged revulsion. and lols, of course. it's like cannibal corpse cover art in that it does little to normalize or minimalize misogyny.

not claiming that "epar" is laudable on this score. it's not. it's a great track with a couple really unpleasant and unfortunate punchlines.

funny that i am concurrently arguing exactly the opposite in a horror film thread on ILX: that an otherwise good movie (the signal) is ruined by a few unpleasant punchlines. mysteries...

surfboards stfu

the rest of you, carry on

ok lurker here and hopefully i'm not repeating what others have said but as a guy who listens to a lot of rap, odd future disturbs me far less than the misogyny and general attitudes in many many "fun" pop charting rap songs like, just to grab an example of one I was just listening to, get your roll on by big tymers. Age def has something to do with it, like teenagers being dumb and saying intentionally outlandish shit including rape jokes vs. dudes in their fucking 30s-40s reinforcing the idea that being cool and successful means fucking a lot of hoes, who you don't give a shit about, and are willing to use violence against. I mean, it's a huge hit party song by grown ass men that has the line "slap that bitch/punch that ho" and no one bats an eye.

Not trying to single out Big Tymers here and obv I wouldn't suggest that we take everything a gangsta/mainstream rapper says at face value but there is certainly a vibe about odd future that suggests that the viewpoints in their lyrics are not how they, as people, actually think, in a way that which makes it strange that this is even a discussion. to me it's like taking brotha lynch to task for talking about infanticide and cannibalism vs waka (someone else on the waka album?) saying that someone "deserves to die like omar gay ass from the wire". In the latter case i think most would agree that that is actually how dude feels.

indie dudes find offensive indie rap less offensive than offensive regular rap, rationalize, film at 11

& fwiw the big tymers record is a total comedy album & is absolutely full of jokes, albeit similarly "oooof" type jokes.

Not sure why I'm an "indie dude" if that was directed at me, I listen to far more mainstream rap.

I'm just going from a gut feeling here and trying to think it through and work out why I feel that way.

shoot first ask indie later

lol. i just think like, yeah id probably rather chill w/ tyler than idk baby, but otoh baby has never "even jokingly" rapped about raping someone & its the music im listening to here, not the person making it? like im not entirely sure why my projection of Who They Are As People is so significant

part of what's going on with 4chan type shit anyway is generational male rebellion & angst presented in a way that's tricky to dismiss as corny, a visceral rejection of, & reflection of, "the world our parents left for us".

lamp quoting J0rdan S. up there, btw, from two months back. it's an interesting idea. but like, would you apply that same justification to "4chan type shit" in general (including 4chan itself)? why or why not?

― naked human hands and a foam rubber head (contenderizer), Thursday, November 18, 2010 11:48 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

just for the record, this is actually something zvookster said

indie dudes find offensive indie rap less offensive than offensive regular rap, rationalize, film at 11

― smangs of new york (deej), Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:31 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

haha dude, wth, we've all been discussion this like normal rational dudes and there you go again, totally dismissing basically everything everyone's said because lol they are corny indie fux

i think deej has basically been right in this thread, altho personally i'm really not offended at all by OF and tend to side w/ CAD in terms of getting offended by the more 'real' misogyny in rap

like, there's something much more real about when big l raps about killing fags than when tyler uses the word fag all the time

also, OF have a female engineer/producer in their crew who they treat as an equal, snoop showed up to an award show w/ women on leashes -- so there is a dividing line

altho i do think trying to parse out how ppl act in real life & what they rap about is potentially tricky territory

but generally yeah teenagers acting out & trying to get a rise out of ppl in this fashion doesn't bother me at all esp when they're as prolifically creative as OF

i think deej has basically been right in this thread, altho personally i'm really not offended at all by OF and tend to side w/ CAD in terms of getting offended by the more 'real' misogyny in rap

― big smang theory (J0rdan S.), Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:51 PM Bookmark

yeah, same here. the one rap song (from someone i like!) that kind of made me go "ugh, rank" is "mack a bitch" by jackie chain, but i'm not sure there's any rational reason why that repels me and odd future doesn't.

the one rap song this year*

how can you say deej is right and then rebut basically everything he's said? to both rev and j0rdan (and sorry bout the misattribution, but that zvook post is hard to parse).

i'm talking more about the stuff he was saying earlier

how did they 'rebut' anything i said? we are expressing diverse opinions on two artists ... im arguing for a subjective view of 'offensive' & they are explaining their perspectives of why one is up their alley and one is not. i dont see the contradiction

they explained why they are more ok w/ OF than i am. thats not arguing w/ me at all

yup

indie crits, engaging in one rap group of the year, are shocked at content. Read More ->>>>>

you are an idiot