ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

this entire discussion is weird

in a lot of ways the taken-for-granted violence and institutional misogyny of "regular" hip-hop is more objectionable than the fantasyworld of odd future

but whatever makes you feel better i guess

thinking more about the site itself than it's particular instantiation in OF, but, i'm not really on board w/ this:

part of what's going on with 4chan type shit anyway is generational male rebellion & angst presented in a way that's tricky to dismiss as corny, a visceral rejection of, & reflection of, "the world our parents left for us"

as i quote it, j0rdan does say "part of", so, how much? i don't think very much tbh. mostly it just seems like dudes basically enjoying themselves.

yeah, "handwringing" was kind of dismissive, and I'm totally down for questioning society's sexist bs in general, but it reminds me of when ppl were making their fb statuses calls to boycott 50 cent albums because they misread some tweet he made, like any of you crunchy fuckers were buying fiddy albums in the first place

xxxxps

if someone I loved was brutally murdered by a serial killer, I probably couldn't kick back and watch dexter either, but people have a right to create and consume the art that appeals to them

and now it's time for my favorite quote:

censors tend to do what only psychotics do: they confuse reality with illusion - cronenberg

in a lot of ways the taken-for-granted violence and institutional misogyny of "regular" hip-hop is more objectionable than the fantasyworld of odd future

― call all destroyer, Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:12 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah i can get with that

in a lot of ways the taken-for-granted violence and institutional misogyny of "regular" hip-hop is more objectionable than the fantasyworld of odd future

― call all destroyer, Thursday, 18 November 2010 18:12 (4 minutes ago)

i call bullshit on this

hahah

its different. but not 'better'

maybe they're both objectionable in diff ways

lol xp

"I think a guy rapping about forcing a woman to fuck him is much less offensive than snoop dogg calling a groupie a ho"

i think trying to put these on a scale of acceptability is total bullshit. i dont care that OF are 'just joking' bcuz thats exactly what a rapper wd say if a girl called him out on calling her a 'ho' so

i'm not putting them on a scale of acceptability, i'm more saying that we will rationalize why the things we listen to are "ok"

there's a world of difference between "this is less offensive TO ME" & the statement you made

the furthest i would go is to suggest that odd future is not grounded in reality in a way that lots of other rap claims to be

xp yeah i was being a pain in the ass

yeah its an 'on the other hand' type thing: odd future def seem more going for some irrational juvenile shock irreverence, & on the other hand, rapping abt rape is a lot more ... um ... visceral. than casual misogyny. i can see ppl being 'more offended' by either one, tbh. i happen to feel like hearing dudes talk abt raping, joking/'obviously fantasy' or not, as being hard to stomach any more

im sure when i was 20 i would have been all who-gives-a-shit these dudes are dope!! but idk, the reasons i listen to music are different now

i mean the reason i can 'deal' w the geto boys better is bcuz of what theyve done as artists since, and bcuz of how old i was when that stuff first hit me, and because of what they were representing for, and all sorts of other contextual things that make them different.

but again, this is speaking purely from my perspective, & i can see where some younger dudes like j0rdan et al might find this more novel

enh, i'm not sure i even stand behind this, but: the front-and-center horror of OF's lyrics is, at least, qualitatively different from the wallpaper misogyny in a lot of other rap (and rock, etc). like, it's a lot harder to shrug off some of the more graphic imagery in OF than it is to be all "i was just kidding when i said 'ho'". you know? i mean, as some ppl got to upthread, at some point (it seems like) the dudes in OF would go "yeah, this shit IS pretty fucked up," while i can't imagine 50 or snoop ever copping to the fact that their lyrics are genuinely offensive to some people, and for good reason

xps

i think there are ways to explain their appeal that dont involve avoiding the offensive stuff, or pretending it doesnt exist, but incorporate it, and dont excuse it, but explain how it works for the listener.

surf- 1. don't do that 'lol old people' thing because i may be younger than you and people of all ages have problems with RAPE 2. most of the people in the thread love these guys and want to see them succeed, myself included and are talking about why they/i feel that why. doesn't mean we cannot attach criticism to the parts they dislike too. 3. i feel this way about all rap music that goes too far with my own personal hurdles of what i find offensive and your defense of 'oh but deej likes this one artist where i cannot find him criticising him for the same shit he is criticising of for' is stupid and lame. there is a lot of shit music i hate and a lot of jokes i don't find funny. there are examples when people i generally like make big mistakes. but we've got jobs and families and friends and hobbies and whatever and don't have time to discuss every fucking one of these issues somewhere. And you know what, I may be adding my dislike of Em's rape jokes or Biggie's rape jokes or whoever to these guys to streamline the conversation about rape jokes in rap. Poor OF but i'm sure their get over it. And just because it is one of the MANY parts of rap music and possibly the ONLY thing I can fault OF on doesn't mean it should be dismissed as some sort of new jack lightweight bullshit.

"t's a lot harder to shrug off some of the more graphic imagery in OF than it is to be all "i was just kidding when i said 'ho'". you know?"

arent a bunch of ppl in this thread trying to do just that

sure?

i mean was that supposed to be a gotcha or something?

ok, well thats who im responding to! we probably dont disagree

no im just explaining what im arguing with!

oh ok

i just resist the idea that there's somehow a more-righteous misogyny involved in these guys' case. i think a rapper who meets a lot of groupies observing groupies behaving like groupies is certainly offensive, but there are def ways in which it is certainly less offensive than ironic graphic rape raps, even if its more 'authentically felt'. just like the opposite can also be true.

I think I get what CAD is saying in terms of institutionalized attitudes in rap. like, you've got to suspend moral obligations if you're down with wu-tang yelling "this is dedicated to n****s who do drive-bys!" giving shout-outs to the casual murder of innocents should turn stomachs but it probably doesn't - "it's part of the game, man!" how many members of OF do you think are really living out their lyrics for street cred?

unfortunately there's no scientific formula for measuring the degree to which art reflects vs. shapes reality

^ sorry I just posted that without reading about 50 posts, it might make no sense in context w/e

in regards to 4chan, the only person i know irl who heard of these guys (besides, like, people involved in the music biz) was is a dude who's up on 4chan. i think he might have seen the Earl video even before i did because apparently it was sort of a hit there but less the exception than the norm.

he also gave me a pretty thorough explanation of what the site is and the culture and stuff and it definitely felt like a piece of the OFWGKTA aesthetic that i had been totally blind to

eIII's disclaimer applies here too

i guess maybe the divide here is that when i listen to these guys i hear young, fucked-up teenagers who are keenly self-aware of how fucked-up they are, and how their music will provoke listeners. so they have fun with it.

whereas, a lot of the time (not all) i think that dudes rappin about groupies and w/e ~actually feel that way~ about women.

but that's a personal thing, ymmv, etc

think we're all good here. this:

i mean, as some ppl got to upthread, at some point (it seems like) the dudes in OF would go "yeah, this shit IS pretty fucked up," while i can't imagine 50 or snoop ever copping to the fact that their lyrics are genuinely offensive to some people, and for good reason

is a really good point--if o.f. are still doing rape jokes in 5 years it will be sad and a waste of their talent--guess i'm saying i can handle it more because of THEIR age than anything to do w/MY age (deej we are pretty close in age i think?)

you're all just a bunch of blogging ass bloggers who chose a side based on a reaction to something you were probably ambivalent about and need something to SAY

soorrrrryyyyyyy

second google result for odd future

On Odd Future, Rape and Murder, And Why We Sometimes Like the Things That Repel Us
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2010/11/on_odd_future_r.php

the land of blog & honey

the big diff I see between OF and 4chan culture is right upfront in tyler's "bastard" - there's a sensitivity and self-reflection you don't see in the usual "I raep joek 4 the lulz" crowd

thnak you edward iii for hte perfect example of a waste of 20,00,00000 words on a blog

you're all just a bunch of blogging ass bloggers who chose a side based on a reaction to something you were probably ambivalent about and need something to SAY

― surfboard dudes get wiped out, totally, Thursday, November 18, 2010 10:46 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

says the guy with something to SAY

i guess maybe the divide here is that when i listen to these guys i hear young, fucked-up teenagers who are keenly self-aware of how fucked-up they are, and how their music will provoke listeners. so they have fun with it.

whereas, a lot of the time (not all) i think that dudes rappin about groupies and w/e ~actually feel that way~ about women.

but that's a personal thing, ymmv, etc

― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Thursday, 18 November 2010 18:42 (12 minutes ago) Permalink

this is a good pt. but otoh, the groupie thing is often a subtext of a wider lifestyle/outlook & will just get the attention of a throwaway line in a song that is otherwise abt, idk, ~real schitt man~, or maybe just wordplay about jewelry colors, or whatever else, while for this stuff being shocking is v. much ~the point~, like the misogyny takes center stage (how can it not?) so i think its v much an it-can-go-either-way thing

like i dunno that u can conclusively say one is way worse than the other

re deej: the fantasy-land suspension of reality does make a difference, somehow. it did with geto boys, too. doesn't make the stomach-churning stuff any less repellent, but it makes the whole easier to accept. like a lot of the casual misogyny in popular rap does read as legitimately and perniciously misogynist to me, but earl's shit doesn't. instead it reads like a smart kid acting retarded, which i'm okay with. though i'd be happier if he'd tone it down a bit.

CAD otm though: we will rationalize why the things we listen to are "ok"

i mean the other thing in that is ... in the 'normal rapper' worldview, this is a way a person was raised, and the rapper is simply ignorant of the wider offensive implications, while in OF's case, they obv know its 'wrong' yet persist regardless. so its easier to put the 'blame' on the artist for not making different decisions, while its hard to be like "lol u have negative views reinforced by societal expectations"

dunno why i wrote 'lol' there

don't want to start anything, but that seems to condescend to "normal rappers," you know? i kind of figure that everyone has an equivalent responsibility to know what the fuck's up. which maybe shoots my liberal relativist cred to shit, but so be it.

i dunno. there's a difference between "condescending to" and "being understanding of," though the line gets blurry. retract.

im not DEFENDING ignorance at all -- im just saying its different than intentional provocation

i mean just in terms of how you write a critical piece about the artists, to what extent society is complicit sorta relates u know?

i still dont think its a 'better' or 'worse' deal, its just different.