Ashlee Simpson 'Bittersweet World'

I'm thinking everything P!nk does (and I love her)

Interesting to bring Pink in again, because what I love about Ashlee is that she does this stuff without it being What She Does. Pink by contrast seems really shticky to me, and the Veronicas (even on their second album) are practically cartoons.

"Family Portrait" versus "Shadow," "Leave Me Alone (I'm Lonely)" versus "Love Me for Me," "Who Knew" versus "Say Goodbye."

To Lex: Yeah totally - R&B is doing the same things as teenpop does a lot of the time! And I half-wonder why it is that "we" (as a culture) seem to feel this compulsion to distinguish ourselves from the perceived self-obsessed materialistic immaturity of teenpop singers but don't feel the same compulsion w/r/t, say, Rihanna. I mean, yr Alex in NYCs will still dismiss Rihanna as trash, but they won't feel the same need to take her down on a personal level. Yes there's a narcissism of small differences thing at work (Ashlee encroaches on Alex's musical territory more than Rihanna does) but it's interesting how the adolescence of teenpop sticks in people's throats whereas the adolescence of R&B does not.

Hmm Mr Grey you've convinced me to pull out the 2nd Veronicas album again and have another listen. However I should note that I wouldn't deny that there is psychic life there, but rather note that my enjoyment hasn't been routed through it. The whole twins singing in tandem thing doesn't help here - I don't think there's been a successful pop act since perhaps DREAM who have played up the "manufactured" in "manufactured pop" so much while simultaneously writing serious pop songs. NB 1. I love the whole twins singing in tandem thing. NB 2. I still have to investigate Danity Kane.

(Don't mean cartoon purely in the pejorative, of course, but something about them being twins makes them...I dunno, more abstract than Ashlee seems on her first two albums. And Ashlee seems more abstract to me on "I Am Me" than on "Autobiography." And she's trying to be a cartoon on her new one.)

xpost Tim, you definitely need to hear Danity Kane's new album, but you won't find much personality. Possibly a function of having so many people singing the same thing/"being the same person"!

t.A.T.u. has the exact same problem, actually, but I generally like 'em more than the Veronicas.

I think P!nk is *using* schtick for her own purposes, which I think is smart, but then again, P!nk *is* really, really smart.

It's interesting to think about how, when females express anger, it seems to come off as cartoonish. I can totally see this with Angela Gossow, whose cookie monster IS schtick (does that make it less valid?) If I use the argument that it's incredibly calculated--as all things super-pop must be--then I can apply it to The Veronicas (which won't effect the way it effects me.)

It's a weird, under-explored, the femme rage-expression continuum. And not to labor the stupidly obvious, but few mull over punk rock male rage.

Then again, you have The Birthday Massacre, where the anger is *totally* cartoonish and therefore not effective unless you're a 16 year old goth girl. But I think that might have to do more with the narrowcasting of niche genres.

part of the R&B/teenpop split might be related to teenpop not being a genre (any more than 'pop' is a genre i mean), no real stylistic requirements, since an age group can have as broad a base of genres as is possible - i mean there is 'teen pop' that is R&B, hip hop, etc. I think ppl probably feel pretty weird about grouping their music in such extra-musical terms as target audience

im comfortable/conversant in R&B as discourse since i grew up w/ people who had established a pretty diverse, contradictory and nuanced view of it, from 'classics' to 'old school' to 'grown folks' to radio hits to whatever else, the groundwork for discourse is already there. Teenpop threads are trying to expand discourse that doesnt really exist outside of a certain age group and a few disney board rooms (as far as im aware)

btw this post was just thinking aloud, i havent really thought this through but it seems mostly true

No, it's not cartoonish in the anger they're expressing. Ashlee is great at expressing anger without being a cartoon (and being a cartoon, like in "Love Me for Me.") It's cartoonish because the conceit is fundamentally silly to me -- I LIKE it, but I can't parse a distinctive personality in it. Although it worked for M2M, so again these aren't "rules" or anything.

t.A.T.u.'s drama is writ huge both in over-text and musical terms.

With "All About Us", it's the drama of the story of the girls (supposedly) reclaiming their agency from slimy Russian svengalis, of declaring their radical allegiance to one another in a non-hawt-lesbian way.

Musically, it's these teensy girl voices up against the monolithic power chords and orchestral samples--it's like, epic, heroic even.

The Veronicas are more, er, subtle?

Why are calling Jordin Sparks R&B?

did dream have any other songs apart from 'he loves u not'?? that was amazing. though it's probably the most high-school song out of anything being discussed.

the vocal production on the new danity kane album is quite something.

erm i think a big sticking point for teenpop detractors might be that they think ashlee et al are like 16 or something? so many of the points made are like, oh, how can you make this music sung by children for children? when it's really music sung by someone the same age as me and consumed by, er, pretty much no one. (anyone doesn't everyone like soulja boy? isn't that so much more "grown men listening to music that is listened to pretty much exclusively by pre teens"??)

i liked yr post about why you like ashlee tim but at this point this thread is basically reprising the hilary humbert thread, at the time i remember thinking "is anyone actually reading here", and what i mean to say is that i really can't take the ashlee detractors seriously until they've given an indication that they've bothered listening to her music beyond half-hearing 'outta my head' once in the shop. i really want to talk about bittersweet world cuz the poptimists discussion seems to have come to a close but i'm not interested in defending why i want to talk about it yet again. go re-read hilary humbert, people.

(nb: i think it's my favourite of her albums)

My first thought about Ashlee's anger portrayal and The Veronicas is based on, again, the way my ears hear their respective vulnerability.

I mean, even when Ashlee is pissed, I have no doubt she'll overcome whatever. And so, for me, not much drama.

The Veronicas, to my ears, sound on this record like they're perpetually on the verge of seriously losing their shit, which could be viewed as either cartoonish or, to me, very dramatic.

"Why are calling Jordin Sparks R&B?"

Well isn't it Chris Brown singing the line Lex quoted? Or is that Jordin gettin' low? I've only heard it on radio.

"did dream have any other songs apart from 'he loves u not'?? that was amazing. though it's probably the most high-school song out of anything being discussed."

"This Is Me". Or was is "That Was Her, This Is Me"? Either way Lex u must hear this. Also I loved their whole Sabrina the Teenage Witch - IN SPACE! visual aesthetic.

Lex - Dream had one other song I can think of...'This is Me', perhaps? And then Puff Daddy stopped having sex with one of them and they disappeared.

While the contrast being set up between engagement with R&B and teenpop is certainly interesting, I'm still trying to figure out why we're classifying Ashlee as teenpop. She's not really part of High School Musical, Aly & AJ, Jonas Brothers, etc. and that ilk. I guess you could link her to Hilary Duff and Lindsay Lohan, but they were both pitched initially at the Disney etc. audience and crossed over into the mainstream, if I'm not mistaken. Ashlee was always firmly pitched at Top 40 radio play.

"i liked yr post about why you like ashlee tim but at this point this thread is basically reprising the hilary humbert thread, at the time i remember thinking "is anyone actually reading here", and what i mean to say is that i really can't take the ashlee detractors seriously until they've given an indication that they've bothered listening to her music beyond half-hearing 'outta my head' once in the shop. i really want to talk about bittersweet world cuz the poptimists discussion seems to have come to a close but i'm not interested in defending why i want to talk about it yet again. go re-read hilary humbert, people."

Yeah I hear you on this Lex. I'm only going through this defence insofar as I was thinking about that stuff again today anyway. Happy to talk about Bittersweet World itself - but should go listen to it again first!

Okay it's 3am here what the fuck am I still doing up. Bedtime.

Anyway, Lex. There's no reason we can't simultaneously have the meta-why-Ashlee? conversation and the actual Bittersweet World conversation.

(nb: i think it's my favourite of her albums)

Why? Is it purely a sonic thing? Has the abandonment of the guitar aesthetic made the sound more palatable or is it something more specific? Because, while I think it's more consistent than I Am Me wrt number of good/great songs, it pales in comparison to Autobiography. While in part that's because I personally dig the Courtney-gone-pop sound, it's also there are too many moments on the album that don't click.

Ironically, those tend to be when Ashlee tries to approximate her old sound - What I've Become, Never Dream Alone, etc. Little Miss Obsessive is the only one that really seems to capture that aspect of her on this album.

I mean, even when Ashlee is pissed, I have no doubt she'll overcome whatever.

Ha, you have more faith in Ashlee than I do (and more than Ashlee seems to!). I think this is where Bittersweet World becomes interesting for me -- with the Veronicas, I can sort of "hear them" about to go backstage and scrub off the make-up. Whereas Ashlee didn't do make-up-scrubbing until recently and it's interesting to figure out where she succeeds and where she doesn't.

Heh. See, *I* hear The Veronicas going off stage a swallowing handfuls of Xanex!

er, "and" for "a"

I still don't really like Ashlee, but I think teenpop has at least become a pretty concrete genre, complete with stylistic changes. Around the turn of the century it was bright Swedish pop, then it became "Since U Been Gone" pop-punk stuff, and now it's morphing into darker electropop a la Aly & AJ and whatever that Hannah Montana hit is called. This is a distinct thread that broke off from mainstream pop and has its own stars and discourses, but there's also a clear thread uniting all those stylistic changes, and they make a certain amount of sense in context. That in and of itself is pretty interesting.

That was an xpost to deej's "part of the R&B/teenpop split might be related to teenpop not being a genre" btw. And teenpop is a really important genre to a certain age demographic.

(Which I know in part because many of the people in my program--all of them girls btw--are studying the media use of kids and adolescents. One girl is doing her thesis on how Hannah Montana is a bad influence, sigh.)

ppl probably feel pretty weird about grouping their music in such extra-musical terms as target audience

Er, isn't that how most people group music? (I'm not saying they should categorize music that way -- and I'm not agreeing that that's what teenpop fans on ILM do, either -- but it's hardly uncommon, and hardly specific to any one genre.)

Also, if anything, it seems like most of the Ashlee fans on this thread are saying she isn't teenpop (of if she is, she's other genres as well).

"xp yeah but the "why are we persecuted??" stuff from grown men listening to music that is listened to pretty much exclusively by pre teens"

This really isn't the case though. The vast majority of Ashlee listeners are not preteens (I doubt my nieces even know who she is). Preteen music listeners are a VERY refined and unusual niche. I imagine that the only Rolling Teenpop-discussed music that they listen to is Hannah Montana and the Jonas Brothers. And over the course of the past year, "See You Again" has attained mainstream radio play outside of Disney Radio. So grown men have heard plenty of Hannah Montana at this point.

The biggest thing that frustrated me about the response to the teenpop thread was that most of the time we were discussing music that either wasn't targeted to kids at all (Ashlee, Clarkson, Duff's last record), or was ignored by them (Tisdale, Pruitt). And most of the artists we discussed were in their 20s or older.

So when you realize that the material being discussed isn't really different from the pop music which has always appealed to teenagers and adults alike, from Elvis to the Beatles to Madonna, you start to wonder why the response to discussions of it is so vitriolic.

Oh hey, getting back on BW for a second, I might have missed it above...but Tim, when you listen again I'm interested in your thoughts on "Never Dream Alone," which to me is this weirdly calculated approximation of an "Ashlee-type closing ballad" (other two albs the closing ballads are "Undiscovered" and "Say Goodbye," two of my favorite songs by her) that doesn't really hit me. (But it also seems more indebted to a kind of theatricality -- musical theater-based sincerity, or something, which I tend to be hugely skeptical of for some reason -- that rarely speaks to me.) A few other people, Greg for instance, are really moved by it, but I'm still not hearing it.

Actually, I can imagine how Hannah might be a bad influence but prolly not as that girl did

That is, when you contrast Hannah's sheer peppiness and can-do against life on earth, I'd imagine the negative friction might really grate on actual teens.

Sure, you had a similar perky thing with The Beatles, but there was also a healthy cynicism.

My niece, who's 14 HATES Hannah for essentially these exact reasons. No surprise, she favors Marilyn Manson. MCR and the like.

Yeah, according to my cousin, 13-year-olds listen to a LOT OF EMO. Which is NOT POP (but for some reason you're also not allowed to call it "emo"). When "Smells Like Teen Spirit" came on, I asked her if it was pop. She couldn't believe I'd asked, and then her brother, a few years younger, said "It's heavy metal! Gawd..."). By liking the teenpop stuff as discussed on ILM, I am quite out of touch with the vast majority of its assumed target audience.

My niece, who's 14 HATES Hannah for essentially these exact reasons. No surprise, she favors Marilyn Manson. MCR and the like.

One of the things I've learned from the other folks in my program is that kids generally like watching/listening to people 3-4 years older than them, because they identify with a slightly older age group than they themselves are in. If you're actually Hannah Montana's age, she seems immature. She's actually targeted at tweens and even pre-tweens, apparently.

I think what's interesting about the changing sound of teenpop is that it tracks larger stylistic changes in pop culture--so teenpop sounded like pop-punk when being a rockstar was a cool thing for tweens to want to be. I don't know quite where to put the dark electropop--maybe it has something to do with Rihanna? Or they caught on to the new romantic revival 7 years late? Maybe the ice princess thing is in now.

I'm waiting for a Disney-friendly version of The Knife.

I mean, yr Alex in NYCs will still dismiss Rihanna as trash,

Please don't speak for me. I like a bit of Rihanna's music.

Ashlee, meanwhile, is, was and e'er shall be: crap.

I don't know quite where to put the dark electropop

Make plenty of room for randomness, too, with lots of artists "experimenting" in this direction with very different co-writers: Vanessa Hudgens on a bonus cut on her first album, Veronicas on their album (which makes more sense -- I mean they co-wrote a t.a.t.u. song and obviously understand the similarities), even someone like Katy Rose releasing a one-off that she apparently recorded several years before.

Also with R&B tending more in this direction anyway, and obviously informing (and more often than not "counting as" itself) the teenpop stuff, too.

Also, my teenpop albums of the year so far (fwiw) are Ashlee's, Lil' Mama's, and Dolly Parton's. And Taylor Swift's Live from Soho EP if it counts. If that says anything about where it's at generally, I dunno. I have a hard time believing Cassie's new album won't be good, since her last one is probably my favorite overlooked-at-the-time album of...probably the decade, but definitely the last couple of years. I feel like September and Taio Cruz should both sort of count, too. (Most of these aren't in the running for top 5.)

</unsolicited opinion>

Yeah, sorry for being a dick, Brainwasher. I have my own thoughts to post, but i'm going to sift through these others first.

I haven't heard the whole album but I just watched the "Outta My Head (Ay Ya Ya)" video. It's a cool video but I don't think that song works for her voice at all; I spent the entire time wishing Gwen Stefani was singing it instead. I can't buy into the song given the way she sings it. I think one reason why this whole false sense of innocence thing kept coming up with respect to Ashlee upthread is because to some people she sounds like she doesn't actually understand or feel the emotions behind some of her songs, like a relatively happy, well-adjusted person play-acting at being mad.

Conversely, this faux-naif musical style works really well on songs like "Pieces of Me" or "L.O.V.E.", or songs like the snippet of "Boys" on the Amazon.com site.

Do you feel the same way about I Am Me? I think she sounds pretty legitimately spiteful in that one. "Pieces of Me" is a little faux-naif, but it's "faux" in relation to the rest of the stuff on that album, I think. And even that song is more complicated than it seems at first...for one thing "pieces of me" is both shorthand for "I'm complicated" (very Avril, whatever) but also about what happens when you hit the bottom crash and break into a thousand pieces. Which means she's still broken. And he doesn't fix the pieces -- she's just happy she has more than nothing, which is also the premise of similarly lilty and blink-and-you-missed it profound track "Better Off." I think that's the sentiment that you'll never get in Avril or most of her derivatives -- a sense of resigned joy at the thought that things aren't worse. (That isn't something that screams "teenager" to me, in fact think a lot of adults have trouble really capturing that feeling, and I think it's a common thread through a lot of Ashlee's songs.)

I think "Outta My Head" worked like this for me: (1) kind of hate it, not understand it. "Faux-naif" is fairly accurate. (2) Try to sync it up with what I already understand about Ashlee's music, and finding no real precedents for it ("L.O.V.E." is supposed to be silly and doesn't have any cartoonish angry stuff in it, "Boyfriend" more rock) decide that she's doing something intentionally weird, not sure what, but whatever, it's catchy. (3) Realize, after liking the song's catchiness, that she's doing old and new style simultaneously, and still pulling it off (don't think any of the other songs on the album can claim this). I can imagine a point where you stop at (1) or (2), moreso than (3) which is, for lack of a better word, a generous way of listening to it. (I don't think it's reading too much into it, but I also admit I don't expect very many people to read that far "in.")

Simpson's ideal for "Outta My Head"! If she has influences on this track, it's Lene Lovich and Terry Bozzio; she wastes no time on the Gwen Stefani comparisons. For one, she's realer than Stefani: the husk and faint, grainy quality in her voice help immeasurably. She and her producers do an expert job of simulating frustration. The track is simultaneously clipped and expansive.

If she has influences on this track, it's Lene Lovich

Yeah, like Ashlee's EVER FUCKING HEARD of Lene Lovich. Be real please.

you've asked her?

Betcha a hundred dollars she hasn't.

Influence has little to do with whether an artist has heard or read about her forebears.

how can you be influenced by something you don't know exists

It's as vague as something in the air. Or the source material gets appropriated so often that you may not be able to locate it (since it's Bo Diddley day, I'd be really surprised if Anabella and the other members of Bow Wow Wow studied their old Bo 45's to record their "I Want Candy" cover). It's genes! In the same way that, somehow, you have your Great-Great Aunt Susan's nose even though she's been dead 20 years and you've never met her. I could cite Harold Bloom's theories on the anxiety of influence, but that'll take too long...

Anyway, those of us who write or record music know this -- how many times will someone say "This bit reminds me of Richard Yates" or "This first-person monologue sounds like Proust" even though you've never read the bloody writers.

*write fiction

"Intentionality" is mostly jive. Just cuz an artist SAYS she listened to so-and-so doesn't mean it's there either. But it can be! At any rate, I don't see how this discounts the possibility that Simpson conjures Lene Lovich.

I wouldn't use the word "influence" - that referes to a very particular relationship between the artist and his/her 'forebears'. Just because you read something and that "How Proustian!" doesn't mean that that person is "influenced" by Proust.

and think***