theo parrish s/d

really the question is why the fuck would anyone want to appropriate anything from Jews?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Berlin

okay, Irving Berlin aside?

by the way, anyone else totally agree with pipecock's recent post about how much Planet-E has completely declined into major suck territoy?

-- the table is the table

yeah, what the hell's with all of this new euro crap. bring back the real detroit shit, like, uh, ibex and jason hogans.

stick your neck out and blast the 4 or 5 planet e releases a year

why is he putting out euro-leaning tech-house when he could be putting out records by common factor, agent x and e-dancer?

"world hold on" (c2 remix #4)

really the question is why the fuck would anyone want to appropriate anything from Jews?

???

"yeah, what the hell's with all of this new euro crap. bring back the real detroit shit, like, uh, ibex and jason hogans.

-- moonship journey to baja"

the jason hogans records are not my favorite, but those Ibex records are both the hotness. Tony Ollivera is the shit, a highly underrated producer. his records on his own Dynamite Soul label are no joke either, neither are the DJ Genesis records he put out. i actually have a post about the new Ibex 12" he put out a few months back in the pipeline at ISM, that shit flew way under everyone's radar yet still manages to be better than almost every other techno record this year.

go ahead and keep clowning on shit you don't know about. the only one wearing a red nose and big floppy shoes is you.

"why is he putting out euro-leaning tech-house when he could be putting out records by common factor, agent x and e-dancer?

-- moonship journey to baja"

again showing your lack of knowledge. i just played that Agent X record on friday night, it is one of the best dancefloor Planet E's not by carl or recloose. of course Agent X is Mike Clark, only one of the best deejays on the planet and one of the people behind the Beatdown Sounds comps. he has only been putting out excellent records since 1992, you should probably clown on him and go buy Martin Buttrich records instead. the common factor records on Planet E are very nice as well, never been a fan of Saunderson's E Dancer project but i wouldnt call the records bad by any means.

"oh i just read ronan's piece, good point, renders my question sort of moot

-- moonship journey to baja"

does it? Ronan is laughable. i love quotes like this:

"In fact I’m imagining some hippy-dippy 90s strawman when I hear it suggested that white people eulogise about how race doesn’t matter in dance music."

i have seen THIS EXACT ARGUMENT only about 100 times on this message board alone.

"And why is racial militancy so much more a part of dance music discourse than sexual militancy? Wouldn’t it be quite easy to construct similar arguments about gay people in the music industry? About the theft of disco?"

this is another good one. disco music came from gay people listening to mostly black and mostly straight soul music. there were some gay artists initially, but that really changed as the dynamics of the audience listening to the music changed. regardless, i dont know anyone who doesn't acknowledge the gayness in dance music in the US even if the gay crowd has largely moved on to different stuff. in fact, the gayness was probably the largest factor in disco's "death" in mainstream culture here. it is not like the apparent secret that dance music is black, since it is widely known and appreciated probably due to the obvious gayness of the poppy disco artists.

"Above and beyond all of that, I can’t help but feel that there are much more serious issues of prejudice in the wider world than in the world of techno. Okay, so that’s easy for me to say, I’m not a black techno musician. And sure, making the world a better place is less about making prioritised lists of goals and more about a series of them being achieved in tandem, but still. Is the music industry really the first place you think of when you think of injustice? Of racial injustice?"

gee, i wonder why it doesnt matter to you, Ronan. could it be because you get paid to write about white artists for dance publications owned by white people and marketed to white audiences? it IS completely meaningless to you, you are part of the problem.

"In the end, like other Parrish interviews, the piece is so very scriptural, so biblical."

the only scripture is this: "and god said Ronan is a fucking moron". end of story.

"Beyond that, as soon as a white person begins to talk about or agree too keenly with the idea of white people “stealing” music of black origin, you must ask what right a white person has to define such a theft? Isn’t that once again seizing the controls?"

seriously, how does this guy get taken seriously by anyone? how does he get PAID to write about dance music? this boggles the mind. i think my 6 year old understands more about how not to be an asshole than he does.

"I wonder which race invented the idea of cultural appropriation in the first place. If you know the answer, please tell me."

coming from a white person, i love it. love it love it love it.

disco music came from gay people listening to mostly black and mostly straight soul music.

no, THIS is a great one!

blaming gays for the death of disco!

'the gay crowd' moved on, naturally - because the straight crowd continues to rep for 'real dance music' and couldn't POSSIBLY have shifted the boundaries of 'dance music' to fit their worldview of what that actually means

for better or worse (in the morning is a pretty decent track) that agent x ep sounds like a david guetta (or other generic french filterhouse) tune. i was listening to it a lot right after i graduated college, along with a lot of crydamoure records and similar sounding stuff.

you're right about disco's death, pipecock-- ie, this country's horrific homophobia, especially amidst the beginnings of AIDS, was a-raging-- but disco was definitely and pretty defiantly gay well until after the Disco Inferno incident, and well into when house music started piping out of clubs in Chicago.

and disco's death is more a timely thing-- more appropriate would be 'disco's decline in popularity.'

i love his claim to the straight origins of dance music though ... as if the gay clubs that essentially created disco as a dj form were somehow allllll full of white gays appropriating the sounds of straight blacks

and deej, he is right, he just doesn't talk about the reasons for it. which are mainly AIDS, the shutting down of various super-star US clubs due to various issues, and the arrivial of a little thing called house music.

any implication that 'the gay crowd' (L.O.L.) has 'moved on' from dance music = pipecock has never actually spent any time in chicago whatsoever

yeah, that is a bit off-- it was pretty much full of italians, latinos and blacks spinning to mostly-mixed audiences. and by mixed, we're talking economically, racially, sexually, etc.

never been a fan of Saunderson's E Dancer project but i wouldnt call the records bad by any means

ha ha, why not, will you lose your detroit patriot status?

or if he meant 'moved on' simply from disco ... also inaccurate

to be fair, deej, it is just his scene and his generalization about that scene-- techno is pretty much dead to gay people in the US, at least from what i've seen and experienced first hand. progressive house, shitty club house, hip-house and then disco reign.

"shitty club house"

" in fact, the gayness was probably the largest factor in disco's "death""

yeah, dude. unless you've had to experience the Stud then i'd stfu.

just quoting from someone's argument doesn't rebut it, vahid.

are you going to check my gay clubbing credentials?

stop and think

breathe and stop

no i'm not. but the music that i've heard at most strictly "gay" clubs is fucking horrific. exceptions being Aunt Charlies and The Gangway, but that's only because Bus Station John is the man.

ok, so you don't like US progressive house.

or danny tenaglia. big deal.

"disco music came from gay people listening to mostly black and mostly straight soul music.

no, THIS is a great one!

-- deej"

uh, it is true. have you heard of philadelphia soul? i mean, the early disco deejays were playing almost entirely straight black soul music, read "Love Saves the Day" for a pretty excellent recap of that time period since you obviously havent been paying any attention.

"'the gay crowd' moved on, naturally - because the straight crowd continues to rep for 'real dance music' and couldn't POSSIBLY have shifted the boundaries of 'dance music' to fit their worldview of what that actually means

-- deej"

say what? popular gay culture moved on from disco music, i do not see how this can be argued.

"for better or worse (in the morning is a pretty decent track) that agent x ep sounds like a david guetta (or other generic french filterhouse) tune. i was listening to it a lot right after i graduated college, along with a lot of crydamoure records and similar sounding stuff.

-- moonship journey to baja"

the french didn't invent filtered disco loops. has the timeline here really become that twisted? i know you have heard Chicago house before!

"you're right about disco's death, pipecock-- ie, this country's horrific homophobia, especially amidst the beginnings of AIDS, was a-raging-- but disco was definitely and pretty defiantly gay well until after the Disco Inferno incident, and well into when house music started piping out of clubs in Chicago.

and disco's death is more a timely thing-- more appropriate would be 'disco's decline in popularity.'

-- the table is the table"

that is why i phrased it as "gayness was probably the largest factor in disco's "death" in mainstream culture here". obviously i don't believe that disco died, and i am aware of what happened in the underground culture. most people are not so their knowledge of disco can be summed up as such. disco's gayness was more offensive than it's blackness, at least it was more socially acceptable at the time to be openly homophobic.

"i love his claim to the straight origins of dance music though ... as if the gay clubs that essentially created disco as a dj form were somehow allllll full of white gays appropriating the sounds of straight blacks

-- deej"

who said they were appropriating anything? they danced to the music because they felt it in their soul. that doesnt stop the artists who released the music from being straight in the beginning.

"any implication that 'the gay crowd' (L.O.L.) has 'moved on' from dance music = pipecock has never actually spent any time in chicago whatsoever

-- deej"

unless you try to count crappy trancey nonsense as house, techno, or disco, then the popular gay culture is just not as closely associated with that music as it was from 1975-199something. blame raving, blame whatever you want. in cities like New York or Chicago black and gay people are still down with that music, but it is not SOLELY their domain as it once was. i dont know how you can argue that unless it has been 20+ years since you have been to a gay club.

OK, i'll bite, pipecock. who invented filter loops? DJ sneak?

"to be fair, deej, it is just his scene and his generalization about that scene-- techno is pretty much dead to gay people in the US, at least from what i've seen and experienced first hand. progressive house, shitty club house, hip-house and then disco reign.

-- the table is the table"

exactly.

did paperclip people invent filter loops?

see, pipecock's last comment there is what i was trying to say, vahid. the majority of gay clubs play such garbage that i get tard tingles when i pay my $40 cover to watch a bunch of gym-monkeys try to out-queen each other.

"world hold on" (c2 remix #4)

"OK, i'll bite, pipecock. who invented filter loops? DJ sneak?

-- moonship journey to baja"

i mean, disco loops are tracable back to the 80's in Chicago, i honestly couldn't tell you who made the first one but Daft Punk jacked it from Chicago in general, though obviously their production was a little less clean and polished than the French shit that blew up charts.

i dunno, man. you guys are really transparent. maybe nobody pays you for your music writing because 90% of the stuff you say is just an attempt to fluff up the music you happen to play and to talk shit about the music that other people happen to play.

uh, it is true. have you heard of philadelphia soul? i mean, the early disco deejays were playing almost entirely straight black soul music, read "Love Saves the Day" for a pretty excellent recap of that time period since you obviously havent been paying any attention.

ive read it. im asking you about the audience for the dance music that was disco, and the rise of club culture. yeah obviously it came out of soul music that was commonly performed by straight ppl - i dont know why youd think that was even in dispute - but the genesis of 'disco music' and its aesthetic is not solely inherited from the aesthetics of straight early 70s soul ... a lot of shit came into the style in between harold melvin and it leaving and becoming house and electro and whatever else in the early 80s ... im not talking about how the artists themselves identified, im talking about aesthetics and the engine behind the music, which was one part early 70s philly soul but also plenty of showtunes and kitsch and (other cliche shorthands for gay aesthetics that im probably being somewhat offensively reductive about) that are just as much about what makes disco 'disco' as straight black dudes w/ a four on the floor kick.

say what? popular gay culture moved on from disco music, i do not see how this can be argued.

...only in the sense that all cultures 'moved on' from disco music

unless you try to count crappy trancey nonsense as house, techno, or disco, then the popular gay culture is just not as closely associated with that music as it was from 1975-199something. blame raving, blame whatever you want. in cities like New York or Chicago black and gay people are still down with that music, but it is not SOLELY their domain as it once was. i dont know how you can argue that unless it has been 20+ years since you have been to a gay club.

if by this you mean that gay ppl are a diverse group who listen to a variety of styles of music, then yes i agree

xpost

like, it always spirals inward toward your music collection, and your podcasts, and the house parties you DJ at. guess what - you guys don't have a monopoly on meaningful engagement with music, nor are you the first people to own records + tables (and maybe even a crate!) in the history of the world.

which was one part early 70s philly soul but also plenty of showtunes and kitsch and (other cliche shorthands for gay aesthetics that im probably being somewhat offensively reductive about) that are just as much about what makes disco 'disco' as straight black dudes w/ a four on the floor kick.

or maybe the most obvious example here is THE DJ coming out of gay club culture, thus EDITS and extended breakdowns and all that shit that makes up current dance music ... black & italian dudes spinning for gay black dudes???

i mean, disco loops are tracable back to the 80's in Chicago, i honestly couldn't tell you who made the first one but Daft Punk jacked it from Chicago in general, though obviously their production was a little less clean and polished than the French shit that blew up charts.

-- pipecock

yeah, but it doesn't change the fact that mike clark's "in the morning" sounds as commercial and polished as any cassius or dj falcon track. i mean, what do you make of that, and the fact that geography aside, clark and planet e put that record out around the peak of the international filter-house boom, and not in 80's chicago?

xp to pipecock/self - point being its supremely reductive to imply that gays were just an incidental audience for 'black culture' and maybe things are a little bit more complex

the funny part is i agreed w/ a few of your criticisms of ronan, if not the obnoxious way in which u phrased them, but you happened to sound just as stupid and reductive if not moreso in your dismissal of, you know, nuance and complication

i dunno, it's like talking to geir. it's like a game of twister that you play with your brain. you're going to pick which things you like: 80s chicago house, 90s detroit techno, "underground" disco (but not the bee gees), theo parrish. and then you try to build an intellectual position where you stick a hand or a foot in which each one, but don't touch anything else, no matter how convoluted that makes your stance.

vahid, i'm pretty open to a lot of things in the world of dance music. i just have never liked progressive house, except for that one Sasha and Digweed mix i bought when i was 14 after watching Groove. pretty much everything else in that subgenre, i find rather garbagey. but to say that all i do is look inward is fucking wrong, and you know it, so seriously shut up.

story i quoted in the bobbins thread:

KEVIN STARKE: "There was this one story that I always talk about. I would go on Saturday nights when Armando played at the Warehouse. I would go down there to watch him play and talk to him, just find out information on records. He'd always show me records when I didn't know what it was.

"Saturday night at the Warehouse was primarily a black night. There weren't too many white guys. But I remember this - he looked at me one night, and said, 'Watch this. This is the record I'm going to play and mess these guys up.' And he showed me the record: 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' by Nirvana. I'm thinking, oh, they're never going to dance to this. They're going to get pissed!

"These people lost their minds. People went fucking nuts. That guitar riff - people were dancing all crazy. That's when I kind of looked at it like, okay, never say you can only play this kind of music at this kind of a club. Never say this type of people only like this type of music. You never know. Once you've got the crowd, they're yours."

i used to go clubbing five nights a week, when i was closer to 25 than to 30 (actually i'm 31). and because in california the clubbing scene in general and the gay clubbing scene are pretty tightly knit, i've been to my fair share of progressive house scenes. there was one particularly big one, i forget the name of the dj, but she's pretty famous, a very butch lesbian. the only track i recognized all night was basemenet jaxx's "fly life", which was pitched up like +8. i think it might have been a laidback luke edit or something like that. did i like it? no, not really, but not enough to get very snobby about it. it was a weird sort of music, but only a few steps removed from robert armani or dj funk, both of whom i enjoy a lot.

i dunno, maybe i'm too old to get "tard tingles" over people liking music i don't like. maybe it means i like detroit techno less than you do, i dunno.