Ashlee Simpson: Emo or Oh no?

i never said that people don't talk about those songs, obviously they do, but thats not really the idea. Many of the people that will get nostalgic about Ashlee many years of now will think they ARE talking about music, because they never needed/wanted to look beyond the radio or their immediate exposures.

Chris Rea's "I Can Hear Your Heartbeat" was a medium-sized hit on Montreal radio - pretty decent song (never heard "Fool" though). Greatest Gino Vannelli single ever: 1986's "Wild Horses" (a towtruck driver I worked with once told me his mom was Gino's cousin!)

I see your point. It starts sounding like "punk" means so many things that it means nothing. Which would hardly be the first word that that's happened to.

Just because "punk" might arguably mean many things, doesn't mean it means everything. Gloppy, cookie-cutter, glossy, sickly, candy-colored, slickly-produced teenybopper radio fodder it does NOT mean.

more likely guys who "took it" in prison.

Oh, I don't know. I mean, you're right, not every bit of gloppy, cookie-cutter, glossy, sickly, candy-colored, slickly-produced teenybopper radio fodder is punk, but "Hey Joe" (Byrds), "Hey Joe" (Love), "Cherry Cherry" (Neil Diamond), "Steppin' Stone" (Monkees), "Break On Through" (Doors), "We Gotta Get Out of this Place" and "It's My Life" (Animals, those songs included on this list for their Brill Building/Colgems associations), and "Kicks" (Paul Revere and the Raiders) - to name some tracks that were state-of-the-art in their time and had money and bizzers involved in their creation and were the sort of record that retrospectively got called punk rock once Marsh, Bangs, Barnes & Co. started batting the term around c. 1971. Not that I'd call any of those songs sickly, but I wouldn't call any Ashlee songs sickly either. And not that those songs have much of a punk effect anymore, neutered as they are by nostalgia and familiarity and sounding small these days given so much intervening musical roar and bombast, though maybe some kid who approached them with fresh ears would somehow feel the spark I felt in 1966. But then, the Sex Pistols don't have much of a punk effect anymore either except again on the kid who somehow makes his ears new and isn't impressed or put off by the bands' pedestal. Obviously my various uses of "punk" don't match all of yours, and I wouldn't call Ashlee a punk, just call her someone who occasionally veers punkward. But by and large as much or more good punk gets made by nonpunks as by punks anyway (in this part of this sentence I'm meaning people who think of themselves as making music in the punk-rock genre; maybe I think "punk-rock genre" is something of an oxymoron).

Yeah, why would a 21-year-old woman who's been in the music business for years have actually heard much "punk" music or emulate any of it, or think about what her image and sounds mean, limited as she is by her peers - who would be L.A. musicians and actors, right, who probably therefore only have access to a small amount of music, living in such a backwater. (Though L.A. does have a library. I know because I visited it once. Even went inside. Had books and stuff. Forget if it had compact disks.)

I mean the punks (not the nonpunks who make better punk than the punks do).

"Punk" not necessarily always meaning "good," obviously.

you know I agree with that! I'd think her collaborating with Tim Armstrong might have even been gutsier - and nobody talks about those tracks (not sure I've heard them!).

No, but it did mean the Monkees' "(I'm Not Your) Steppin' Stone" before it meant the Sex Pistols' "(I'm Not Your) Steppin' Stone" or S.O.A.'s "(I'm Not Your) Steppin' Stone" or Minor Threat's "(I'm Not Your) Steppin' Stone." (But seeing as how these two meanings have nothing to do with each other, I can understand how things get confusing.)

Agreed. Second place: "I Break Things," by Erika Jo (about breaking things).

And Alex might be interested to know that the first place finisher "Kerosene" sounds exactly like an old Screaming Blue Messiahs song (and has the same title as old Big Black song).

But it doesn't.

Jeez.

(The "look at your life instead of looking into mine" line means "look and see what you did to drive your boyfriend away rather than deluding yourself into thinking I stole him from you.")

(I like Rancid and Transplants often enough. Actually, I've only heard the title track of Gangsters and Thugs, which disappointed me: I'd have as soon called it "Gangsters and Shrugs." Did anyone hear the Screwed and Chopped album?)

P!nk's vocal range is greater than Ashlee's (greater in variety as well as notes she hits), but I don't always like where P!nk goes in that range: She's a bore when she tries to be Janis, for instance. Ashlee does better with what she's got.

You should buy the third Pink album, Frank; it's the best one. The only shitty song is the first single, "God Is A DJ," and there's one on there, "Catch Me While I'm Sleeping" I think it's called (don't have my iPod in front of me), that's straight Philly soul. I'm really interested to see where she's gonna go with her next record. If she follows her current trajectory, it could sound like a mid-80s Lita Ford album or something.

More or less true, but come on....listen to fuckin' either of those two singles on her first record and TELL me they're not slickly overproduced dollops of soulless product.

Ironically, the "overproduced" part of "Boyfriend," the discoed "woah-woah HA!" part, is the only part I like. It's the raw guitar and vocal verses that strike me as blah.

I've always liked Joan Jett but always thought she came up viscerally short by oversinging and having the guitars too loud; wish she'd gone back and listened to Dixie Cups "Iko Iko" or something to learn how to get that elementary rock 'n' roll motion. Anyway, I think that "La La" pulls off what Joan Jett never quite could; it lifts the multi-guitar multi-voiced sound and makes it dance. But I wouldn't call either Joan Jett or Ashlee slick; and I think Ashlee's a much smarter singer. I think Ashlee and Shanks pull off the anthemic choruses on the new album but I also think they might have done better - it'd have been worth trying as an experiment (and for all I know they did try it, and didn't like the results) - to be less anthemic. Who knows? Alternate universe. I love Def Leppard's "Pour Some Sugar On Me," but wonder if there might not be a great alternate version done by someone like the Dixie Cups in their "Iko Iko" mode: street corner rather than arena.

i have to admit i've never understand the seemingly universal notion that the sex pistols have aged poorly because they were "all attitude" or somesuch (odd that you never hear this argument levelled against the rolling stones or iggy pop or public enemy, but maybe it's just cooler to namedrop them than it is the cartoonishly ubiquitous pistols). i'm 23 and heard this album for the first time when i was 16, about a million years after the word "punk" ceased to have any real meaning, and it sounds better to me every year. one of the things i find so powerful about it is that all of john lydon's disgust, rage and bile comes in the context of what are basically great, well-produced pop songs, about a million times catchier and funner than anything i've heard by the likes of ashlee simpson (and i like quite a bit of modern bubblegum pop).

so i can't really agree with frank's assertion - but then i don't feel that any of the power has gone out of, say, little richard's "long tall sally," and i can easily imagine a teenager hearing it for the first time today and being blown away by it - *i* was. but maybe i'm wrong.

It's not that they've aged poorly (because they haven't), it's that they're no longer shocking, so to speak.

"shockingness" never EVER ages well!

Hey!

Because if it is, in fact, more hackneyed and cliched than Joan Jett, then I think the accusation of "gloss" is maybe valid. Gloss is dressing something that is nothing up to give it the appearance that it's something.

it is amazing, but nothing else on the album it comes from comes close. it's glaring in it's awesomeness if you play the whole benny santini album.

Dont spit on me and shame yourself
Because you wish you were someone else
You look so clean but you spread your dirt
As if think that words dont hurt
You build up walls no one can climb
The things you do should be a crime
You're queen of superficiality
Keep your lies out of my reality
And when you're nice its a pose
You're one of those

[Chorus]
Haters
Traitors to the human race
Haters
What a drag
What a waste
I'd like to see them disappear
They dont belong anywhere
Haters

Spinning a web thats hard to see
Of envy, greed and jealousy
Feeling angry but you don't know why
Why dont you look me in the eye?
You want my friends
You want my clothes
You're one of those

[Repeat Chorus]

Different life form
Different species
Broken promises and treaties
Talkin' bout exterminating
Not the haters
Just the hating
You say your boyfriend's sweet and kind
But you've still got your eyes on mine
Your best friend's got her eyes on yours
It all goes on behind closed doors
And when you're nice it's just a pose
You're one of those

[Repeat Chorus]

Haters
Later for the alibis
Haters
Any shape
Any size
I'd like to see them disappear
They dont belong anywhere
Haters

I hate you so much right now
I hate you so much right now
Aaaaah
I hate you so much right now

I hate you so much right now
I hate you so much right now
Aaaaah
I hate you so much right now

I hate you so much right now
I hate you so much right now
Aaaaah
I hate you so much right now"

(But I'm not saying it can't play a punk role, obv. But probably doesn't play that role for self-styled punks.)

But then again, "La La" doesn't even pretend to social convulsion; it's just girls doing their la la. Which puts it on the level of the Dixie Cups or the Marvelettes and such. And its artistic achievement is that it takes the weight of all that guitar overload and does bring it to the Marvelettes, does this far better than Joan Jett did. Ashlee has way more of a dance. The anomaly is Ashlee's voice, which isn't a cheery-deary party voice but is more like burnt rubber, and burnt rubber makes her party a better party.

I doubt that Ashlee even imagines that her party could spark a social convulsion, and I doubt that she'd want it to; she's more concerned with provoking her own convulsions as far as I can tell, and with subduing them. Thing is, for whatever one's convulsions, personal or social, I think that "La La" will make a fine soundtrack. It's got the beat.

that describes her dancing quite nicely, actually.

I still prefer Lohan's "First" by a mile.

She's got a whole bunch that are better than "Caught Out There," which I like for the "I HATE YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW" parts but not much else. I mean, it's a good solid Neptunes track, I guess. As for an Ashlee song that outpunks it, "I Am Me" just slaughters it, not in hatred but in bowling me over with a loud syrup of virulently beautiful sound: must be due to the overproduction, the loud pretty melody, like "I wanna be/an-ar-chee" was a loud pretty melody; and seizes your eardrum vocals, like "Go on take everything, take everything I want you to"). Jeesh, I can't believe I'm comparing her to the two greatest rock singers of the last 30 years. Well, I wouldn't say the song is in those two songs' league... not quite in their league... I don't think it's in their league. I'm playing it obsessively but I'll get over it, I'm sure. (Right?) The words aren't remotely as interesting. But the fact that I can even make the comparison, some starlet doing Courtney style vocals to an almost "Anarchy" quality tune and coming within range, despite not really having the pipes...

I completely disagree about Micky; he was a great singer on some of those tracks! Listen to "Sometime in the Morning" and "As We Go Along" for proof. He didn't have so great a *rock* voice, but as Carole King interpreters go, I'd rank him third only to Dusty Springfield and Carole herself. (Mean Grace Slick impersonation on "Zor and Zam," too.)

This isn't fair. I'm sure that Alex experiences the song as "glossy" and "slick." When he hears those massed guitars and that burr of a voice and those la-la-la melodies, his ears register it all as dripping with slickness and gloss. His reaction is quite visceral. I don't doubt him. What frustrates me about ILX - not just about Alex - is that too many people treat their experience as bedrock; nothing can challenge it, nothing can dislodge it, hearing is believing. So too few people try to say where their experiences come from. I don't only mean that they refuse to analyze what in the song provoked their response, but that they refuse to analyze why they in particular are having their particular response. What is it about your friendships and upbringing and social allegiances and individual identity that result in your hearing this song in the way you hear it, feel this music in the way you feel it? It doesn't just happen that one person hears gloss where someone else is getting rocked to his socks.

(X post: I haven't listened to Mickey Dolenz in years, so I need to hear again. His voice certainly wasn't within a thousand spacetime warps of Jagger's or Burdon's, but he had moments when he could achieve something close to their achievements anyway. Don't know what Jagger would do with Carole King. Burdon's "Don't Bring Me Down" is fabulous.