Throwing Muses: C-o-D

The Smiths (the band) = either "they saved my angsty teenage life" or "miserable whinging git Morrosey and his Elvis-ripping off henchmen" while The Smiths (the legend) = greatest British band since the Beatles, etc. etc. etc. and all the dissecting of the legend and the personalitys that shaped it and so on.

I was comparing TM to the legend, in terms of their status as giants of music.

Did I say "their"?

What you say above is eloquent and admirable. I wonder if one day you will be able to convince me of it. And I wonder what it would take.

I "heart" you, Stevie.

The physical - yes. "House Tornado" - yes (it made no sense to me and I ignored the tape for weeks; it made sense somewhere near the perimeter of an MoD firing range on Formby beach, late summer '89, wind whipping sand into my headphones).

The most excited I've ever been at a gig - Muses, Trent Poly, Feb '91. The most excited I've ever been about a forthcoming release - "The Real Ramona", Feb '91. The most disappointed I've ever been by an eagerly-awaited release - "Red Heaven", Aug '92.

Right - come on, Roger...

It must seem unreasonable of me to nitpick away at it like this. I'm not trying to say they're a Dud. I just don't quite see the Classic bit, either, on the whole.

"Not Too Soon" sounds totally out of place on _The Real Ramona_. It sticks out like a polished diamond in a pile of tarnished silver dollars. And it's Tanya's best TM offering, by a wide country hectare.

And it's funny that someone (Sean) thinks that _Hips & Makers_ is a back-to-basics move. I felt the same way, but I think that _University_ was actually recorded BEFORE _Hips & Makers_. I forget where I heard that, but I used that information (& that theory) as the foundation for my breathless praise of _Limbo_ on my site.

I can't remember the thread where this discussion took place.

BUT all I was really looking for from our Scouse friends was a (favourable) description which was a little bit 'closer to the music'. Stevie's stuff about Camille Paglia is great - but it's great cos Stevie is great, not (I submit) because TH are great (and CERTAINLY not cos Camille Paglia is great; heaven forfend).

I appreciate that the desire for a description which is 'closer to the music' might be another chimera - another senseless request which our Scouse friends will find it impossible to fulfil. At the end of the day (Clive), I have a feeling that they are talking as much about themselves as about TM - who (I suspect) were very important to them at a certain time in their lives and have thus made a kind of emotional imprint that they can't really explain. That is not a criticism - it might be the best reason for loving a bit of pop music (I think it's my usual reason). It's just that it's not very 'transferrable'. I can appreciate that TM meant something to little Stevie T when he was a wee boy writing vast dissertations for Christopher Bigsby - but I can't hear that in their records. (Or can I?)

You have clearly forgotten the early 90s, when every band from Suede to Blur was described as "The Best British Band Since The Smiths". That's legendeering on a scale with the B**tles.

Back on TM again, yesterday afternoon at the HMV mega-sale, I actually went and bought a copy of House Tornado and Fat Skiier on CD to replace vinyl back in storage. Damn ILM for influencing my record buying habits!!! Second time this week!

Wrong again.

I have not forgotten the early 90s. At least, not totally. I wish I could remember them a little more vividly than I do - but really, that's another thread entirely.

Your argument now seems to be that because some media people in the early 90s implied that the Smiths were a great band, they're not really a great band - that was just all Legend stuff. Whereas (you asserted above) talking about 'That Miserable Git Morrissey' is not Legend-peddling, but is simply the rough, unvarnished Truth.

From my POV (which as ever is not anyone else's POV), the Smiths are perhaps the greatest British band after the Beatles. Put it another way: they are perhaps the most important band to me ever. This is not much to do with constructing Legends; it's just the way I feel about this band. (I don't ask anyone else to share this feeling.)

I fear that what this 'debate' comes down to is that you don't like the Smiths much, and I do. Fear not, I have no desire to make you like them more.

But that does not stop them from having a "Legend" which has far overtaken either their music or their lasting influence. You are just unable to see them because your devotion outweighs your rationality.

If some people/lots of people/everyone except me/no-one thinks a particular artist is the best ever it couldn't possibly change the way that I think by itself. (However,weight of opinion might suggest that I have another listen and I COULD have been wrong all along : "Loveless". That's different.)

Masonic Boom: disappointed by your resort to cheap abuse. I maintain that you are mistaken and your distinction is, in this instance, utterly BOGUS. BUT you were right about one thing earlier: this is the Muses thread and we ought to be discussing them.

Totally sublime, forgive-them-anything-for-that Throwing Muses moment which Scouse worshippers at shrine of Hersh have not mentioned (perhaps don't like?): TWO STEP.

Sean Carruthers - Yes it rocks, but thats not its why it holds its own. Yes, maybe they did have something to prove and in my mind they did. The Real Ramona was a great album, but a follow-on would've been impossible. With Donelly onboard, it could've easily turned out to be little more than sugar-coated pop dross. Not that I dislike Donelly's post-Muses ventures, its just that I think another Ramona would've involved too many compromises. Tanya and Kristin were obviously going in different directions.

I agree with Dr C. - Red Heaven is a classic album. Its raw and fresh, like one of them just said "well its just me and you now, lets get down to it". Red Heaven really conveys a sense of rapport, especially Rosetta Stone. Kristin seems to hit upon something that transcends the 'bit'iness of some of their previous outings. To me, it appears as if she finally managed to give all her ambivalence a face of its own. Red Heaven has a very rich character, indeed. If they were attempting to reinstate a more personal and intimate sense of identity, then I think they certainly achieved it.

Given the choice between:-

a) a "chilling and slinky" male fantasy involving Kristin Hersh, ice cream and a black negligee.

and

b) the opportunity to ride along with someone blowing out the cobwebs during a transitional phase in their life.

... I would take the latter ;)

I definitely wouldn't say that you're only familiar with the "dud album", Dyson. From what I've heard of her discography it sounds like Hersh started with her most apocalyptic (or grating, depending on your tastes) work and then gradually mellowed, while remaining off-kilter and "in touch with her emotions". I'd certainly give the older stuff a try, but it's pretty up in the air what you'll prefer. I'm not sure myself, but my girlfriend would vote for "The Real Ramona" as her fave.

Would someone in the recording industry PLEASE compile all those odd EP / b-side / single tracks onto one accesible compact disc type object? Yo, Ivo! (This is especially urgent & key as I've found a SLSKer w/ the entire TM disco available for D/L - including the new album! - BUT a) they've 600+ people in their queue and b) their D/L speed is 0.8!)

David R. is BONKERS.

Get these and be a better human being:

HOUSE TORNADO + THE FAT SKIER
RED HEAVEN
LIMBO

Then go after all the others. When you're done, start with the Pixies.

I just saw Kristin play live about a year ago, and she's still got it.

http://www.inkblotmagazine.com/rev-archive/images/ca_muses.jpg

all! about! this!

Red Heaven is splendid as well, but really, The Real Ramona balances pop and barbed, spiky unease better than any album i've ever heard by anyone ever, FACT.

er...Tanya & Kristin are back working together? Did I miss a meeting? Details, STAT!

It's too different from the first album or 'real ramona' to really allow for easy comparison but... well, I liked 'red heaven' and 'imbo' ok but never ever listen to them. The songwriting here hasn't been so consistently on since the first two albums and eps. I'm 100% re-smitten.

but less classic after kristen started taking her meds. or something.

i have "soap and water" in my head all the time.

Thoughts on: Throwing Muses (s/t 2003) vs. Red Heaven vs. 50 Foot Wave - Golden Ocean ?

I've still not heard TM2003 or Golden Ocean ffs. I guess I've been wary, because I'm real picky about the TM output I do like. Ignoring the more average (by their standards, not others) albums (Hunkpapa, Limbo, University, for KH solo I dropped off after Strange Angels sadly) makes them seem SO much more legendary in my mind.

Relative prolificity (and Kirsten not losing the plot) has I'd agree, really hurt their standing compared to other similarly awesome bands.

wait David isn't drumming any more?!?

Not on the new album or apparently this tour, at least.

gah

I like the new album and very much enjoy her bluesky posting but I LOVE his drumming

am seeing them a week today, hopefully youtube isn't doing them justice

It’s really been bugging me. Dave has been in Throwing Muses since 1983. When there were two of them it was just Dave and Kristin, even Leslie was credited as a guest on Red Heaven. When the Muses coexisted with Fifty Foot Wave the only difference was Dave vs Rob Ahlers. I would never pretend he’s a creative force on par with KH, but god dammit no Dave no Muses. It’s a KH touring band, same as the last TM record is a KH record. I know better than to judge when I don’t know the situation it it feels like it lacks integrity after all these years.

*but it

I think Dave's pretty wrapped up in his graphic design business these days. Last saw him in April after his dad, who was a popular coach and guidance counselor at the high school I went to, passed away.

big sigh. i like dave's style a lot (percussive+graphic). glad i got to see the kristin/dave/barney trio a couple times. i remember kristin posting a lot on her blog around the time of the 2003 4ad album. she would make a lot of seemingly insignificant, but kind of snarky references, to dave. "37 hours" from her sunny border blue album is about him. i've always gotten the impression that he's a fairly private person and, especially in later years, required some coaxing to continue touring.

all of this aside, her songwriting chops have not wavered at all over the years. it's kind of a weird dynamic that the records continue to be good, but the legacy of the band and who's involved in what is getting sticky. unfortunately.

do more than 2-3 songs on the new album even have drums?

ach, yeah, I should not have said anything when I didn’t know anything

I have a soft spot for Dave because when the Australian label offered phoners to promote University, I got to talk to him for an hour - he blew off the next interview and patiently told me all about the early days. And then when I flew to see them on the tour I spotted him and said hello, whereupon he invited me and my friend backstage and shared the rider. Sorry - I’m sure I have already told this story here.

3 July 2019, as Zing kindly placed my previous telling at the top of the last 100 posts on this thread.

I mean really it isn't Throwing Muses without Tanya Donnelly or Leslie Langston either but that ship has kinda sailed. This is like fourth-era Throwing Muses I guess.

I certainly wouldn't NOT see this Muses lineup because there's no David playing, and at least Fred is 'in the family'. The names Hersh decides to put on her projects have become somewhat mysterious to me now; Possible Dust Clouds sounds more like a Muses album than the new one, for instance. there was a point where she said economic conditions kind of dictated this; if an album / tour was a Muses thing, it might make more money but it was also a lot more expensive to tour because she was committed to paying David and whoever played bass more money as well.

I'd still go to this because she will play Bright Yellow Gun while playing a show as Muses, despite who is in the band; but she wont' do that as 50 Ft. Wave or solo (probably).

I have a soft spot for Dave because when the Australian label offered phoners to promote University, I got to talk to him for an hour - he blew off the next interview and patiently told me all about the early days.

!!!! so jellllllllllll

Anyway I came here for the same reason, I was looking up deets of the new tour and was like "wtf is that Doony (her son) on bass? Whats going on where's Dave" and apparently I am not the only one. But then again, I've been aware she plays everything herself for some time now, guitar/bass/drums the lot. So I guess it is sensible. People who had to get f/t careers outside of music cant really just drop everything for a long tour.

I got to see them in 93 - according to Wiki Bernard was the bass player by that point so I guess I never got to see the OG lineup, despite feeling like I recall otherwise. I got a GREAT photo from the 93 gig though, of Kris in that classic "I am not here" stare.

Hopefully this'll work
https://i.imgur.com/rcfjhfp.jpeg

LOl apparently i'd posted this pic in this thread before (but the links broken so hey)

awesome, thanks

I remember that stare! I think I saw them at the Corner Hotel on that tour.

I just found that I have the 11 page transcript of the Dave Narcizo interview sitting in a folder, if anyone was interested - I don't know where one would upload such a thing without shovelling it into an AI slop bucket.

jeez I'd love to read it, idk just a dropbox link?

I squished it down a bit format-wise - will see what I can do.

No idea how to protect the link from crawlers, but que sera sera I guess. Thanks for the interest! https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/k1t1d5ziioeeb2899s9z5/David-Narcizo-interview-1995.pdf?rlkey=wonc2o113lsx5rwofdszf9ill&st=hudyp3ow&dl=0

thank u!

ditto!
PS yes that photo was taken at the Corner :)

That was a fab interview Matt, thanks for sharing it x

:)

(intro is a bit goofy but hey, it was 30 years ago)

I'd still go to this because she will play Bright Yellow Gun while playing a show as Muses, despite who is in the band; but she wont' do that as 50 Ft. Wave or solo (probably).

― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Friday, 30 May 2025 15:42 bookmarkflaglink

fwiw I saw her solo a few years ago and she did in fact play Bright Yellow Gun