― Dan I., Friday, 28 March 2003 19:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
i do love that the most common criticism of ilm is how "white" it is by...wait for it...white guys. the ironing is delicious. (not saying "dead disnee" is necessarily white, but...) -- jess (dubplatestyl...), September 26th, 2002.i mean, no offence, but just because this place is overrun with corny indie motherfuckers these days doesn't mean that there aren't/weren't people who were knowledgable about hip-hop here, many of them white as fuck -- jess (dubplatestyl...), March 4th, 2003.i stand by problem is you're just sad and bloated/like tales from hiphopographic oceans. (guilty...of being...white...) -- jess (dubplatestyl...), March 28th, 2002.well, if you're white as fuck maybe -- jess (dubplatestyl...), February 7th, 2003.haha yeah, too many fat, white brits before for my taste!! -- jess (dubplatestyl...), September 23rd, 2002.i was at a wu tang show once and they didn't show up for almost 2 hours! let me tell you, i've never seen such indignant white people in my life. -- jess (dubplatestyl...), May 29th, 2002.i have terminal white-boy guilt re. house derived from moodyman and all that afro-house! (er...) -- jess (dubplatestyl...), October 1st, 2002.
― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:10 (twenty-one years ago) link
You don't? Really?
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
actually no, it's more to do with class obsessed, uh 'over-graciousness' IYW.
― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
CLARITY
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
(s)elf-hatred = legolas' railslide (25 stairs dawg!)
― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:25 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Adam A. (Keiko), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
My only issue with it is that, as a classification-word that is race/ethnic specific, it reinforces certain stereotypes that in many cases aren't true (white people's supposed lack of rhythm, fr'instance), and one thing I'm not down with is any attempted limiting of what people supposedly should and shouldn't be able to do because of the amounts of melanin in the skin cells, whether it's people saying white people shouldn't rap or black people shouldn't sing oprah. <- (I'm going to leave this typo in 'cause it is just too cool.)
― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
― the pinefox, Friday, 28 March 2003 19:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:38 (twenty-one years ago) link
― maria b (maria b), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:38 (twenty-one years ago) link
Granted, it seems that in Jamaica that I get guff for being "so white" all the time. E.g. this Rasta dude who's known as Manifest told me "It looks like you'd rather call me by my Christian name--so feel free to call me Christopher." He also laughs and has commented about my at my oh-so white was of waving goodbye as opposed to punching fists. When you're summoned by "hey white girl" or "hey whitey" at least once a day or so, you sorta start to get used to the fact that everything you do will be catagorized as "white."
― cybele (cybele), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
Class, however, is THE issue here.
― cybele (cybele), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 28 March 2003 20:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― David Allen, Friday, 28 March 2003 20:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 28 March 2003 20:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 28 March 2003 20:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 28 March 2003 20:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 28 March 2003 20:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
I think the question is racist. Not in a nasty way, but because it unfairly groups together a whole load of dissimilar people based on the colour of their skin.
I think the 'white people' you're talking about are really only a certain age range of white male Americans.
I suppose technically I'm white, but really Nabisco I think you have more in common with the 'white people' you're talking about than I do.
― mei (mei), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sam Jeffries (samjeff), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sam Jeffries (samjeff), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
I can think, off the top of my head, of two recent posts by white, female IL* members that contradict this statement.
A real answer to N.'s topic question would require an essay, if not a book, but here are my thoughts on one facet of the topic -- and let me emphasize the "one facet" in that, as I think there's a whole lot to this issue:
We live in a culture in which, over the last 100-150 years, there has been -- at least in mainstream media discourse -- a significant shift away from what might be called "community-oriented" values. Like most things in history, it could be argued that this shift both represents a reaction against a genuinely problematic status quo, and constitutes an overreaction to it (who was it that said, quite astutely, that every new development in philosophy tends to be an overcompensation for the previous one?). The fallout from this is extensive and far beyond my scope or ability to describe, but some aspects are obvious (greater respect for personal liberties, for instance, or a tendency towards the atomization of human relationships), some less so (anti-intellectualism, materialism, the alienation of most Westerners from their cultural history in the belief that it "all leads to Auschwitz").
In any event, such an environment tends to afford maximal prestige to those who take on -- or, and this is key, are perceived as taking on -- the role of the "badass". I don't really have time to go into the details of this figure, but here's an effective synopsis: "The badass is someone who cultivates an image of being supremely wicked, mean and violent [and] seeks to use violence (and related patterns) in a quintessentially irrational fashion...Yet the badass does have a deeper purpose: He gains considerable power over other people by getting them to perceive him as irrationally violent. A badass is recognized as capable of turning wildly, senselessly violent for no apparent or predictable reason, and so everyone else has to be extra careful around him." (That's from a book by Roy Baumeister.)
I trust I don't need to laboriously lay out the argument I'm making here: that mainstream media culture consistently chooses to propagate images of the badass, that it strongly implies that such men (and they are just about always portrayed as male) are to be feared and respected (i.e. are powerful), and that it strongly suggests that most badasses come from economic or racial crucibles that form them into hardened, dangerous men. This lens, as it were, has been one through which men of many ethnicities and cultures have been depicted -- the Irish and the Italians come to mind -- and it is, obviously, a lens frequently chosen, by a wide range of sources (anyone from hiphop MCs to the nightly news), through which to depict the lives of young, black men. (I assume I don't need to talk about how toxic and damaging this is.)
To most people, the badass is both deeply frightening and oddly fascinating, and when you combine that with the prejudice already felt by many about Africans and African-Americans, you get an image that to many people is quite potent, for it simultaneously represents the feared Evil Other and a vicarious outlet for the destructive impulses of one's "negative self". When people are confronted with someone (or images of many, archetypal someones) that powerful and pervasive, there are a few typical reactions: hatred, chronic anxiety (or, more optimistically, the insight that the image is a fabricated archetype, which empowers one to begin to cast it aside). But there's always going to be a significant portion of those people who choose to identify with the aggressor, in part because that eases their anxiety and permits them the belief that they will be somehow spared. (The corollary to this is, naturally, to devalue the victims of the aggressor; by rationalizing their fate, and ascribing it to some flaw or failure on their parts, a person convinces himself or herself that he/she is "not like them", and is, in fact, superior.)
This behavior manifests itself with far greater specificity when you're dealing with the dynamic between individuals (and if you doubt that, or any of this, try working in an office with a powerful, dysfunctional boss, someone who punishes indiscriminately and irrationally, and you'll see these behaviors in action). But when you're dealing with individuals for whom the anxiety-provoking figure is a nonspecific archetype, then -- since it's obviously impossible to specifically negotiate with someone who isn't present -- the negotiation happens in generalities: people from outside the milieu of the figure begin to identify with it, and despite the fact that they come from a totally different culture (or race, or socioeconomic background), begin to adopt the mannerisms and behavior of the archetype, or at least their own mythologized version of it. And naturally, they're inclined to devalue their own antecedents, in part as a way of hiding them, in part because they've adopted a value-system of power and aggression in which those, often community- and childhood-oriented, antecedents are considered valueless or worse.
The figure of the badass has piggybacked onto Italian culture with some success, and a bit with the Irish though not nearly as successfully (in the States at least). But the nearly unprecedented, worldwide, multi-wave explosion of African-American culture (especially music) has, I think, been a major force behind the massive propagation of this stereotyping of young black men. Certainly, it's been something that many black artists have been more than willing to exploit -- it's all over early blues -- and, in turn, artists from other cultures have been more than willing to co-opt it for themselves. But in any event, the dominance of black musical culture in the latter part of the 20th Century, and in the 21st so far, has meant (obviously in conjunction with racism and race relations, media sensationalism) that the dominant image of the badass has been African-American, and that the badass (whether African-American or not) has been celebrated (while at the same time feared) to an extent seldom, if ever, seen in any culture before.
And rather than drag this argument to the conclusion that I assume should be obvious by now -- or take the time to stitch in any of the other threads that need to be in here, like the fetishization of the Other and so forth -- I'll instead recount a conversation between three jazz students that a friend of mine overheard a couple years ago -- or what I can reconstruct of it (thirdhand!), anyway:
1) White male: ...and yeah, but I was like, that shit was so white, you know?2) White male #2: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean --3) Black male (slightly older): No, no, don't say that, don't say that.1) and 2) What?3) Man, I wish you hadn't said that.1) What?3) About being "white". When you say that, it makes me think, you know...well, to be honest, it makes me think that, when you look at me, you see a "black man", rather than me, as a person. I mean, I know what you meant, I'm not angry or anything...1) or 2) Oh, listen, I'm sorry --3) No, no, just, you know, have some respect. Not just for me, but for yourselves. I mean, you're white, and I'm black, and we're going to stay that way, right? But so what? I'm not embarrassed by my color, so why should you be, or talk about it like it's something bad? What matters is what you have to say, as a musician and as a person.
― Phil (phil), Friday, 28 March 2003 23:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
Nabisco I therefore conclude that you've successfully manufactured a very stupid strawman.
You will have a hard time convincing me that there's not at least a strong undercurrent of white vs. black in a statement like this, referring to "pasty losers" vs. "survivors" (as though there aren't SHITLOADS of black foax who, like, live in their parents' basement until they're 29, making bad beats!).
To me Indie vs Hip Hop is pasty losers who spend too much time on line vs survivors who know what the real world is. Guess who I'll take. -- That Girl (d**********@yahoo.com), March 27th, 2003 1:43 AM. (thatgirl)
― Phil (phil), Friday, 28 March 2003 23:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
How often does this happen outside of music? I think the generally accepted idea that black music is more innovative and exciting then white music has a something to do with it.
― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 29 March 2003 00:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
― sammy, Saturday, 29 March 2003 01:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
bummed that i haven't bookmarked this thread, as i'd love to hit "remove" right about now
― contenderizer, Thursday, 14 June 2012 17:37 (twelve years ago) link
i know that feeling
― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 14 June 2012 17:39 (twelve years ago) link
"but man, Bix Biederbecke is revered on Iowa Public Television"
as well he should be! bix is from davenport. they got good ice cream there.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HxEuUZJ1PGo/TI0UKiDW0VI/AAAAAAAAAFE/bsfcdtpGjuY/s1600/Iowa+Game+Whitey%27s+Ice+Cream+with+Grace.jpg
― scott seward, Thursday, 14 June 2012 22:34 (twelve years ago) link
y'know I should ask my uncle about Stan Kenton, that's never come up... he teaches the Jazz Ensemble at Miami University, dunno how white that is
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 14 June 2012 22:39 (twelve years ago) link
whitey 's yogurten
― bronytheus (some dude), Thursday, 14 June 2012 23:24 (twelve years ago) link
man they loved poppa john in philly. that's an organ-y kinda town. john and joey and shirley scott all making a racket.
― scott seward, Wednesday, June 13, 2012 11:21 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I vaguely remember leaving a bar I was playing a show at (maybe Tritone?) to go to a bar down the street where some old-as-moses dudes were playing organ trio jazz. They had some old-guy stiffness to their playing but were pretty greasy and groovy anyway.
― eggleston or instagram? (Hurting 2), Friday, 15 June 2012 00:14 (twelve years ago) link
And I seem to remember people telling me that it was some kind of known local spot for organ jazz, although possibly past its prime.
bob & barbara's. owned by the guy who started tritone. and before that he had jj's grotto. good jazz at jj's when i lived there. jimmy bruno played there a lot. good pizza. i think he died though? jack. the owner.
― scott seward, Friday, 15 June 2012 00:38 (twelve years ago) link
nate wiley died too. he was the draw at B&B. its where college kids go to drink pabst.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sFSdppO6Ec&feature=related
― scott seward, Friday, 15 June 2012 00:41 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, that's the place, in fact I think it was almost definitely nate wiley that I saw. RIP.
― eggleston or instagram? (Hurting 2), Friday, 15 June 2012 00:42 (twelve years ago) link
God, why are the people in that video so white! I hate them!
― eggleston or instagram? (Hurting 2), Friday, 15 June 2012 00:43 (twelve years ago) link
that's not nate in the video. he took over for nate after nate died. i can't remember his name. fun group of old-timers! hard to hear them in there though.
― scott seward, Friday, 15 June 2012 00:46 (twelve years ago) link
its a fun place for kids to drink. the music is just kinda olde tyme ambience.
― scott seward, Friday, 15 June 2012 00:48 (twelve years ago) link
my dad played this one cd of jimmy bruno all the time when i was a kid
― they loooovin the crut (The Reverend), Friday, 15 June 2012 01:55 (twelve years ago) link
it was good iirc!
http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/68761170/The+Jimmy+Bruno+Trio+50614273.jpg
― they loooovin the crut (The Reverend), Friday, 15 June 2012 01:57 (twelve years ago) link
that's the kind of white ppl i can support
― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 15 June 2012 01:59 (twelve years ago) link
otm
― they loooovin the crut (The Reverend), Friday, 15 June 2012 02:03 (twelve years ago) link
i took my dad to see jimmy once. he liked him. my dad was nuts for jazz guitar. jazz anything, but he loved guitar players. i didn't always appreciate it as much when i was a kid. he would drag me along to a tal farlow or barney kessel gig and i didn't always get it. the finesse. the style. horns and drums i got. in a way, horn players and drummers were more like rockers to me than the guitarists. and i was a rockhead.
― scott seward, Friday, 15 June 2012 02:13 (twelve years ago) link
ha, I bought that Jimmy Bruno CD when I was first trying to learn jazz, and I can still remember the first tune. Weirdly, it took me years of practicing and studying jazz guitar formally to realize that I just don't like jazz guitar that much. It was like there was this sound I heard in my head and that I wanted to play, but I couldn't play it, and then one day I realized that it was because that sound wasn't guitar.
― eggleston or instagram? (Hurting 2), Friday, 15 June 2012 02:15 (twelve years ago) link
Oh yeah and it's on Concord. Concord is all about jazz guitar. I had the Concord Collection of Jazz Guitar on CD, but the only tunes I really liked were a funky Kenny Burrell tune called La Petit Mambo and a sick version of Seven Come Eleven by Joe Pass and Herb Ellis. Those were the weird days when a CD player was still kind of novel and I didn't have enough money to have a ton of CD's so I just had kind of a random handful of albums. I don't exactly miss it, but there was this weird thing where you'd learn an album backwards and forwards that you didn't even like that much, just because it was all you had to listen to.
― eggleston or instagram? (Hurting 2), Friday, 15 June 2012 02:18 (twelve years ago) link
was just listening to the red norvo trio stuff with mingus and tal farlow the other day. holy shit that stuff is nuts. tal is amazing on those tracks. and was really young. i mean, not NUTS nuts. i mean what they did in three minutes was amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwIdBaUm4kA
― scott seward, Friday, 15 June 2012 02:19 (twelve years ago) link
I used to be really self-hating white about jazz actually. I think it was probably because the arts high school I went to was like 90% black. So I was really self-conscious about "not playing white" until one day I came up with a theory (that I still think might be true) that a lot of white jazz players who suck actually suck precisely because they try to play "black," i.e. a really reductionist and pretty racist idea of what jazz is, instead of doing what the best black AND white jazz musicians do, which is just hone the shit out of your musicianship, focus really hard on your accents and the nuances of your phrasing, etc.
― eggleston or instagram? (Hurting 2), Friday, 15 June 2012 02:24 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, work your ass off. that's the best way to go about anything. keep your head down and do your thing.
― scott seward, Friday, 15 June 2012 02:25 (twelve years ago) link
anyway, Jim Hall:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0mGuRM8tBw&feature=related
― eggleston or instagram? (Hurting 2), Friday, 15 June 2012 02:26 (twelve years ago) link
i really like jim hall. but sometimes all you really need is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOm17yw__6U
― scott seward, Friday, 15 June 2012 02:29 (twelve years ago) link
i like what tal and barney did in the 50's. with groups. i don't listen to solo jazz guitar much at all. if i listen to a guitar album it would be wes or kenny burrell or some funky 70's shit.
― scott seward, Friday, 15 June 2012 02:37 (twelve years ago) link
I'm trying to find you a clip of this Kenny Burrell tune called Three Thousand Miles Back Home -- sample bait from the 70s that was also a random thing I had early on. Record is called Stormy Monday Blues iirc.
Meanwhile, I don't like solo jazz guitar either, buthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHE6FSeWuLQ
― eggleston or instagram? (Hurting 2), Friday, 15 June 2012 02:39 (twelve years ago) link
Which led me to this, wowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZDSLQsOmNY&feature=related
― eggleston or instagram? (Hurting 2), Friday, 15 June 2012 02:42 (twelve years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt61GcUl3J0
― onlydarkness.com, Friday, 15 June 2012 03:09 (twelve years ago) link
nice recovery
― contenderizer, Friday, 15 June 2012 05:43 (twelve years ago) link
and my pal elliot levin.
There was a time when I used to see him playing at practically every gig I went to.
― _Rudipherous_, Friday, 6 December 2013 01:52 (ten years ago) link