college was the big intersection for me, but i used to do audio-visual work at hotels, and listen to/interact with the clients, and there definitely are class differences w/r/t how "the help" is treated, and what the people talk about.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:05 (fourteen years ago) link
definitely in the U.S. who qualifies as "old money" is fluid in a lot of areas, but the concept of nouveau riche exists, and has existed for at least a couple centuries. How powerful a determinant old vs. new is in this country is up for debate, and it depends on where you live, what industries you work in, etc.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:08 (fourteen years ago) link
new money vs. old was ever anywhere near as powerful a cultural divider in the US as wealth vs. class was in england. kind of a wan new world reenactment of the old, and i'm sure it still persists (i know people for whom it does), but not in a terribly meaningful manner. gatsby's tragedy lay more in what he desired than what he was actually denied.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link
wrt Jarvis as northern, working-class guy who lucked into college/london but still felt these class constraints, this line from mis-shapes:
"Oh we weren't supposed to be, we learnt too much at school now we can't help but see/That the future that you've got mapped out is nothing much to shout about."
and this one from "glory days":
"When you've seen how big the world is/how can you make do with this?"
Seem to back that reading up. He's describing this aspirational class that's educated and cultured, but still very much materially, like in terms of economics, stuck. "Common People" resonated like crazy with me because of this.
― like a musical album. made by a band. (fucking in the streets), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:16 (fourteen years ago) link
i'm just saying that class differences in the U.S. exist and are noted - though often (?) are not spoken of as being related to class.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:17 (fourteen years ago) link
and i wonder if we're deliberately avoiding working class American attitudes towards class, and those of people of other classes, because it would involve a discussion about race
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:19 (fourteen years ago) link
US often conflates class with race
― a cankle of rads (Gukbe), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:19 (fourteen years ago) link
for the sake of Dan's productivity, we might not want to go down that path.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:20 (fourteen years ago) link
N.B Please do not read the lyrics whilst listening to the recordings.
― like a musical album. made by a band. (fucking in the streets), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:23 (fourteen years ago) link
Would it be fair to say that in the u.s., power and money are just more imp8rtant than class?
― olivia tribble control (kkvgz), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:24 (fourteen years ago) link
sarah otm, i think that's true. maybe people still like to pretend that the U.S. is a "classless" society, but this is just BS.
i've maybe talked about this before, but there was recently a three-day "hempfest" drug celebration in a public park near my neighborhood. drew tens of thousands of weed enthusiasts. and for days a rode/walked around in a state of horrifed revulsion at the weedian dregs. i fucking loathed them and their dreadlocks and their tye dye and their ICP pants and their hoodies. they seemed to me like the worst people imaginable, and i couldn't imagine why any supposedly legit political rally (hempfest posits itself as political activism) could hope to succeed by associating itself with such.
but i'm middle class, from an upper class background. and my resolutely working class girlfriend was much less horrified. (she gets horrifed by hipsters in williamsburg, but that's another story.) which made me wonder if my revulsion wasn't a legit reaction to stupid burnouts, but rather simple revulsion at the culture of a different class. so yeah, class in america.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:24 (fourteen years ago) link
US often conflates class with race― a cankle of rads (Gukbe), Friday, September 3, 2010 4:19 PMfor the sake of Dan's productivity, we might not want to go down that path.― sarahel, Friday, September 3, 2010 4:20 PM
― a cankle of rads (Gukbe), Friday, September 3, 2010 4:19 PM
― sarahel, Friday, September 3, 2010 4:20 PM
haha I was about to say it anyway
― feel free to answer my Korn Kuestion (HI DERE), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:25 (fourteen years ago) link
― olivia tribble control (kkvgz), Friday, September 3, 2010 4:24 PM (25 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
money IS class in America
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:25 (fourteen years ago) link
well, yes. I know that. I'm just trying to reach an agreement with everybody else so we can all go out an enjoy this labor day weekend.
― olivia tribble control (kkvgz), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:28 (fourteen years ago) link
contenderizer, your revulsion at twats is probably just because they're twats.
― a cankle of rads (Gukbe), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:29 (fourteen years ago) link
xp - power and money are stronger determinants of future status, opportunities, etc. But there are so many ilx threads that are America-centric that are about things that are basically class signifiers and the issues people have with them or affiliate with them - it definitely has an effect, though undoubtedly nowhere near the way it does in the UK
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:29 (fourteen years ago) link
― horseshoe, Friday, September 3, 2010 1:25 PM (4 minutes ago)
horseshoe are you familiar with the "Touch of Class" SUV limousine?
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:30 (fourteen years ago) link
is that just one of those stretch SUV limos? i have seen them around!
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:33 (fourteen years ago) link
yes - pretty much - "Touch of Class" was the name of a company in Vegas that operated a fleet of them, that when i saw one, i shook my head and laughed, because those things are so ostentatiously a sign of failing at being classy.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:34 (fourteen years ago) link
and that TV show - Jersey Shore?
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:36 (fourteen years ago) link
can't imagine that discussion going well, but...
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:37 (fourteen years ago) link
don't go there dude.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:38 (fourteen years ago) link
haha for real
― feel free to answer my Korn Kuestion (HI DERE), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:38 (fourteen years ago) link
goole thoroughly OTM IMO
Given that the lyrics specifically paint a picture of someone ridiculously wealthy, arguing about whether it's attacking upper-middle/upper-class but cash poor people is kind of beside the point.
fun fact: neither posh, "middle class" nor any other class is actually referred to in the lyrics
― a cross between lily allen and fetal alcohol syndrome (milo z), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:39 (fourteen years ago) link
i think history mayne's interpretation is pretty solid
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:41 (fourteen years ago) link
nup
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:42 (fourteen years ago) link
help me describe how money does not equal class in America!
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:42 (fourteen years ago) link
class is culture as much as money. my mom's parents were east coast society snobs from way back, and so my mom was too, though she was just a schoolteacher and married badly. and so i am too, in a distant way, though i have always lived at the edge of poverty. similarly, lots of people attain wealth quickly but remain chavish, rent SUV stretch limos, purchase awful sprawling homes with no character, laugh too loudly at the wrong things and wear bad sandals.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:47 (fourteen years ago) link
i guess i just feel like perceptions of class as culture are part of what contribute to Americans not actually being aware of how class affects their lives. i'm not saying people think of class as about money here; i guess i'm saying that they should.
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:49 (fourteen years ago) link
otm
― Donovan Dagnabbit (WmC), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:50 (fourteen years ago) link
see, i feel like a lot of Americans do perceive class = money and dance around the cultural signifiers which are a relation to class and the values of various classes. Education is a big one. Consumer goods is another.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:51 (fourteen years ago) link
vis-a-vis people like Sarah Palin and George Bush selling themselves as regular people when they are crazy rich
xxp
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:51 (fourteen years ago) link
well yeah - but i see the problem with that as Palin and Bush politically fuck over "regular people" - like if they had politics that actually benefited working people, their public images wouldn't be as nauseating
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:54 (fourteen years ago) link
I've been told by multiple people, including some who know me very well (girlfriend who tried to downplay my class background in conversation) that I don't "seem working class." Which pisses me off on two levels - I take a lot of pride in my background, and I'm offended at the idea that listening to weird music or appearing to be intelligent in some way is a signifier that I didn't grow up helping my dad and grandfather out putting on roofs when I was 10 or that I don't have an irrational fear of money because I remember my parents scrambling for rent almost every month in elementary school.
Class is about money and opportunities (and yes, race).
― a cross between lily allen and fetal alcohol syndrome (milo z), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:54 (fourteen years ago) link
but your attitude about money is cultural.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:55 (fourteen years ago) link
but sarahel, whatever people's attitudes about money some people measurably have more than others!!!
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:55 (fourteen years ago) link
sure they do - but i'm saying that money affects people culturally as well as opposed to just materially.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:57 (fourteen years ago) link
conspicuous consumption is part material wealth as well as cultural attitudes about money
― sarahel, Friday, September 3, 2010 3:51 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
yeah, kind of...
i guess i'd put it like this: people in the US tend to kneejerk assume their political enemies are of a different class than themselves, either much richer, or poorer, or some unholy alliance of the two
this only really a percetpional battle within the median income bands, where political opinion is really up for grabs. you have to look at region, occupation and education to get a bead on who they vote for/what they believe, drilling down further than just yearly income.
however, the number of liberal billionaires is really small, no matter how much right wingers hate them. and the number of arch-conservative poor people is also small, no matter how much liberals are terrified of them.
― goole, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:59 (fourteen years ago) link
yeah, but that's self-evident and doesn't require further elaboration. what sarah's saying is not so obvious and opens up on some interesting subtleties. even if they carry less weight than the base-level money stuff.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 21:00 (fourteen years ago) link
i'm talking more about lifestyle and social relationships more than politics -
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:01 (fourteen years ago) link
the number of arch-conservative poor people is also small
what exactly do you mean by "arch-conservative" here, because I feel like you are glossing over a large invisible-to-white-America cross-section of the American minority experience that can't be summed up by "votes Republican"
― feel free to answer my Korn Kuestion (HI DERE), Friday, 3 September 2010 21:01 (fourteen years ago) link
the number of arch-conservative poor people is also small, no matter how much liberals are terrified of them.
― goole, Friday, September 3, 2010 1:59 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark
this is somewhat true, but also misleading. the number of not entirely impoverished but lower-income arch conservatives is VAST.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 21:02 (fourteen years ago) link
contenderizer i think you have it exactly backwards -- the cultural baggage of what we mean when we say e.g. "working class" is all very upfront, while the raw dollar values that underly all these things are occluded and take some digging to see clearly.
― goole, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:03 (fourteen years ago) link
where and how are they occluded? i think we might just be talking around each other - about different aspects of life.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:04 (fourteen years ago) link
i mean, if you're referring to how "hot button" political issues are more about culture and moral beliefs as opposed to economics, then i totally agree.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:06 (fourteen years ago) link
look, a guy who works in a hard hat and likes country! that's working class! a woman working in an office and bought the new franzen novel, middle class! see, so easy!
i'm saying, no, just, look at what these people are paid for their labor. i think focusing on culture doesn't really open up anything, it's already in the open! it's the $$ that's hidden
― goole, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:10 (fourteen years ago) link
some of the cultural stuff is out in the open, but some of it isn't!
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:13 (fourteen years ago) link
similarly, lots of people attain wealth quickly but remain chavish
haaa strange to see an american using that term....
― nakhchivan, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:13 (fourteen years ago) link
― goole, Friday, September 3, 2010 5:10 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:14 (fourteen years ago) link