pitchfork

pitchfork gets judged more than others because it's omnipresent

omnipresent like the beatles.

That's one half of it at least; another half is that we care about Pitchfork in a way that I don't think we do about Rolling Stone or NME, it's part of the information universe with which we associate ourselves. When they screw up we complain because they could conceivably have done better.

And those that don't buy into this just like trolling those who do.

but in the context of a singles/tracks poll I'd never expect something like Derek Bailey or Matthew Shipp to chart.

yeah, i guess just the word "singles" tilts things towards pop - or pop attempts, at least. and i know that experimental music isn't a big part of pitchfork's purview. i'm not faulting them for failing to represent it in their lists. (their abandonment of metal is, to me, more disappointing, but i understand that their tastes aren't mine. no biggie.) still, i question the idea that this division is somehow inevitable, and if so, what makes it so.

there's been a trend in generalist music criticism over the past decade or two to prioritize pop and its paradigms over rock, which had assumed calcified dominance over critical perspectives. that's all to the good, but it's engendered the attitude that the most popular (or, oddly, pop-like) things are and, crucially, should be the natural center of critical attention. thus not only chart pop, but dance and electronic music that is, in some cases, relatively obscure. as a result of this shift, you see pitchfork beginning to split the difference between the pop-leaning indie rock that's been their bread & butter since day one and a "greatest hits" approach to rap and dance music. or something that splits the dif between a greatest hits approach and a more selective crit/nerd canon. i see that this has happened and have my own ideas about why it's happened: it seems natural to me on that level.

it'd still be interesting to see a parallel canon of "important" experimental music hashed out and popularized by semi-mainstream critics, one that isn't assigned stepchild status relative to pop bangers. it doesn't seem ridiculous to me to think that pitchfork or NPR might drive such an evaluation and popularization, or that their audience might be interested in it - not that they have any obligation to do this, of course. i dunno, it probably sounds like i'm stuck on some old-fashioned/elitist mindset where art of "real importance" can somehow be separated from the popular dross. honestly, that's not where i'm coming from. i just like it when critics make it their job to champion oddball enthusiasms, underdogs and non-consensus aesthetics. i like it when they get together in gangs to foist these kinds of argumentative (and often elitist) perspectives on the world at large. that, to me, is a big part of what makes music criticism eye-opening, challenging, worth reading.

hope this doesn't come across as complaining. i'm not complaining, just thinkin baot things.

"Maybe Rob knows and won't tell me."

in the same way that tracks by basinski, fennesz & gas/voight have become canonical in the last decade, however, i'm sure that there's stuff that equally well represents the 90s.

i mean even then, anyone who says there's a canonical SONG by any one of these artists is totally talking out of their ass. I agree with contenderizer re: an experimental canon would be interesting. But it's actually kind of part of the fun that there isn't

it's like the one thing the internet hasn't totally fucking ruined yet

"i only wanna be with you" is not even the best hootie song imo

challop 2 end all challops

i wasn't aware that they had other songs

hootie and the blowpoll : best hootie singlez

you should make that thread max

well, with fennesz you have "endless summer", and maybe you could say "dlp4" for basinski (?), but point taken. as i obliquely suggested above, i wonder whether the hesitancy to advance such a canon is anti-rockist fallout. like, after the dismantling of rock's claim to dominance - and more importantly, after the dismantling of the value-determining paradigms that elevated rock over pop - maybe it's now difficult to articulate and generate broad support for non-populist critical perspectives.

I had no idea this list was even happening until now and feel better off for it.

That's one half of it at least; another half is that we care about Pitchfork in a way that I don't think we do about Rolling Stone or NME, it's part of the information universe with which we associate ourselves. When they screw up we complain because they could conceivably have done better.

And those that don't buy into this just like trolling those who do.
― seandalai,

I don't fall into the category of caring about pitchfork but I don't feel like I'm a troll because I occasionally judge them harshly. People saying a movie is bad in a thread for that movie aren't necessarily trolls in the some way. I guess Trolling would be saying "you suck because you like _______". That's not the same as saying "I don't like ________".

i wasn't aware that they had other songs

hootie and the blowpoll : best hootie singlez

you should make that thread max

― / (The Brainwasher), Thursday, September 2, 2010 9:12 PM (50 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

helloooooo, 'let her cry'

max otm

Blues Traveler stomps all over Hootie

^ racist

which one has the black guy

they went with *we are the pigs* as the best Suede song of the *decade*!?

20-1 is in. some unexpected choices!

No Talk Talk, but Aaliyah, Pulp and Mazzy Star.

7. Neutral Milk Hotel
that band makes me shit vomit

I like that album, but I wouldn't have picked Holland 1945. Glad they went with MBV's Only Shallow

so did U2, Coldplay and The Goo Goo Dolls really not get any shutouts on the entire list? interesting

U2 had a shout out in the see also for "Stay (So Far So Close)" on the Brian Eno/John Cale song.

Good:

Mazzy Star -- not sure they belong at #19 but glad they are represented someplace.
OutKast at #16
DEPECHE MODE YESSSSS
Aaliyah at #8 -- nice placing, huh?

Bad:

Notorious BIG -- dude is top ten material, maybe if he switched places with Pavement it would all make sense?
Pavement at #1 -- Gold Soundzzzzzzzzz......zzzz................ *snooze*
Pulp at #2 -- I like these guys but I mean, really? This high?? LOL ANGLOPHILIA

Ugly:

Nirvana at #13 vs. Weezer at #10 -- LOL REVISIONIST INDIE HISTORY
Neutral Milk Hotel -- no mention of their far-superior (and much forgotten) first album.

Talk Talk -- missing?
Madonna? (surely she placed and I'm forgetting, right?)
TLC?
What else is left out??

that's a really good Top 20.

U2 deserves its own entry in the top 200, btw. Zooropa, Pop, Achtung Baby, all great albums.

TLC placed higher up with Creep.
No Madonna?

wait there is U2 but no Sublime or Red Hot Chili Peppers

I'm happy that the list gave shout-outs to Sloan, The Sea and Cake and Nada Surf

lol gold soundz. it's not even in the top 20 pavement songs let alone the best track of the decade.

TLC's Creep was there at 114.

I remember seeing Ray of Light somewhere in the See Also section.

No Talk Talk though. but maybe they felt they were were more of an album band or that most of their innovation had was in the 80s with Spirit of Eden.

#1 will be, like, "Summer Babe"

― markers, Wednesday, September 1, 2010 2:16 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

#2 will be "Paranoid Android"

― markers, Wednesday, September 1, 2010 2:16 AM (2 days ago)

alright, so we got "Gold Soundz" @ #1 & "PA" @ #4

I'm proud to be the first one to mention Talk Talk on this thread for some odd reason

It was 11 I think on their albums list, but yeah I can see not picking out one track from it...

I'm also surprised at Juicy for Biggie and Outkast's Spottieottiedopalicious as choices

(I don't consciously remember any of their albums list)

All of the artists in the top 40 on that list except Talk Talk, I think, are included here

i love the fact that Pulp came in second, totally deserving and really surprising to me. Pulp just seem more of a British/NME thing, so for Pitchfork to give it that good of placement is sort of cool.

Pavement, Radiohead, My Bloody Valentine, Neutral Milk Hotel and Beck are Top 10 indie = makes sense but Nirvana got robbed.

we got "Gold Soundz" @ #1

huh

A hiphop #1 would've been way cooler.

i couldn't sing appx 9 of these 20 songs if you held a gun to my head

Like seriously.. "Protect Ya Neck" would've been a perfect #1.

ugh, Neutral Milk Hotel in the top 10 + Pavement at #1 sort of spoils all the fun of the list for me. Shoulda known.

"Holland 1945" is really good though..

i couldn't sing appx 9 of these 20 songs if you held a gun to my head

Oh.. well I know all 20.

pitsfork ha.

uh, seems both solid and honestly representative of their brand as it currently stands. personally bummed to see sonic youth top out at #60 with 100%. it's a good song, but hardly the best thing they did in the 90s (see: kool thing, mote, bull in the heather, the diamond sea and hits of sunshine, just to start with). cruelly understates the shadow they cast over that decade, imo. that oasis and neutral milk hotel are given SO much more credit kinda lays me low.

the diminution of sonic youth is paralleled by the fact that there's zero representation for the rock/punk/metal/psych garbage that's most near & dear to me. i wouldn't have expected to see much of it, but the most obvious omissions include things like the jesus lizard, shellac, boredoms, brainiac, RFTC, skullflower and polvo. no matter how you slice it, a pretty thorough repudiation of the strains of indie rock that i actually give a shit about. but i never turned to pitchfork for that kind of support in the first place, so no surprise. maybe these bands & artists, like the experimental stuff whiney was talking about, belong more to albums than tracks? dunno...

man with the exception of stupid ol pavement i fuck with every song on that list

the top 20 i mean

jesus lizard and boredoms were both on the list iirc

There was a typo.. #1 was actually Sleep "Dopesmoker"